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Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

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posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:17 AM
link   

originally posted by: Forensick

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Forensick

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Forensick

Car manufacturers want access to the largest market at the lowest entry cost. Nissan exports the majority of cars it makes in sunderland to the EU.

Given the choice of building cars in the EU and paying tariffs on a small % exported to the UK or building in the UK and paying on the majority what do you think they are going to choose?


Its not a small percent though, there are enough UK sales to warrant a manufacture, UK would not tax car exports, only Europe will tax their import to punish Britain.

The EU dont know if the UK will impose trade tariffs that are unfair, however me thinks that the UK would want fair trade, if we decide what is fair for us and not fair for Europe we will lose out. However the EU want to decide on both accounts, a monopoly on European goods movement....

The UK are one of the biggest contributors to NATO (outside of the US), we work well with Europe on many things and dont want to change that, all we want is to decide for ourselves which should be on a holistic level however the EU want to punish that because we dont want their idea of totalitarianism.

All this is, this whole Brexit debacle, is some but hurt Euros that we called them out. We dont need a EU, we could all get by without it and save billions in EU political costs.

If Greece need help sealing their borders they should be able to request that without France demanding they pay because at the end of the day it protects France and the UK and Eire. The EU is not needed. Its pointless.

The EU is like a business, when the auditors come in and tell them they are too top heavy, they assign the top heavy leeches to sort it out and it becomes more top heavy.

Its got to go and I support Brexit in the hope it assists the EU collapse. The EU is a parasite, corrupt self fulfilling tape worm with a radical agenda that should concern every member and the people they are meant to serve.

Disgraceful abuse of oxygen and borderline dictatorship.


If the UK doesn't apply tariffs then it's even.more likely that manufacture of cars will go into the EU.

Why would any car company choose to pay 10% to import cars from UK to EU rather than build them within the custom union.

The UK domestic market is not big enough to sustain the same level of car production at the same cost. Regardless of what the government does if we are outside the EU cars will get more expensive and manufacturing jobs will go elsewhere.


The UK market was not big enough to support a domestic manufacturer and yet somehow the French, Germans and Italians still have National car companies whilst after Rover we lost Landrover and TVR and yet our domestic consumption is still about 100% of foreign vehicles?

Cant help think that this was somehow unfair that bloody Fiat and Alpha from Italy, BMW, VW, Mercedes, Opal and Audi from Germany then Citroen, Peugeot and Renault from France....

Seems to me they have been sucking the EU tit at the expense of the UK.

Doesnt sound right does it, if we import 100% foreign owned vehicles, what have those EU countries got to fear? The UK driving horses again??


What we have got to fear is less jobs and more expensive goods.




posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:18 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



How about giving the people of the UK a chance to say what they want?


But they have, they voted to come out....that's pretty straight forward really isn't it.



Or are you scared about what the result would be?


But we've had the vote, why would anyone be scared of something that's already happened...it literally doesn't make sense.



Referendums are denying the will of the people?


No.
But failing to enact the result of a referendum would be denying the will of the people.



Who suggested that?


Everyone who is demanding another referendum before the result of the first referendum has been enacted.

I know you are an intelligent and reasoned person, surely you see that?



One referendum does not preclude another.


Well actually it does when the outcome of the first referendum hasn't been enacted upon yet.



Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.


Absolutely.
But if someone who voted Conservative at the last General Election has now changed his mind he can't simply demand another General Election immediately because he's changed his mind, he has to wait until the new government has been formed and the next General Election is held.

Why would that principle be any different for this referendum?


Referendums are undemocratic now?


They are when they are not acted upon.



This isn't a game, there no rules that x must happen before why and absolutely no reason why we can't have a second referendum.

It's arguably the biggest change to the UK since the 1940s. There is every reason to make the majority support the final decision.


The majority did support the decision. 17.4 million of us. You see referendums work like this.....



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:19 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot
I always expected the possibility of WTO rules. I voted with full knowledge of potential outcomes.
#LeaveMeansLeave

Unlucky though bonny lad, that clock is ticking so kiss goodbye to your dreams of a second referendum lol



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:21 AM
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originally posted by: Soloprotocol

and 10's of thousands of job losses, your children used as cheap labour, zero workers rights, human rights violations, privatised US-style health service, Poverty, pain, and suffering like you've never experienced and the tories desperately signing any trade deal that comes their way regardless of how bad it is. Aye, Bring it on.



Lol!! Are you best buddies with Mark Carney



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:21 AM
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a reply to: Soloprotocol

Solo, all you do is whinge and whine about how its those bastard English who are at fault for all of Scotland's woes.
And then you blabber on about Britain's colonial past.

FFS grow up.

Your ancestors begged to enter into a Union with England.
And the Scots played a full and active roll in British colonialism.
Many Scots entered The British Army and Royal Navy and were fully complicit in carrying out these acts of barbarity you seem so obsessed with.
And many Scots made huge amounts of money out it whilst ordinary Scots were little better off than paupers - exactly the same as the vast majority of English and Welsh and Irish.

You aren't unique.
We've all been shat on...the difference is we don't permanently whine on and on and feel sorry for ourselves and blame anyone and everyone else.

You seem to have some romanticised notion that an independent Scotland will be some sort of idyllic utopia.
Guess what, the rich will still be screwing the ordinary men and women over and you won't have the English to blame then.

Oh, and those EU overlords will be dictating everything after they've stripped all authority away from democratically elected national assemblies.



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:22 AM
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originally posted by: rhynouk

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



How about giving the people of the UK a chance to say what they want?


But they have, they voted to come out....that's pretty straight forward really isn't it.



Or are you scared about what the result would be?


But we've had the vote, why would anyone be scared of something that's already happened...it literally doesn't make sense.



Referendums are denying the will of the people?


No.
But failing to enact the result of a referendum would be denying the will of the people.



Who suggested that?


Everyone who is demanding another referendum before the result of the first referendum has been enacted.

I know you are an intelligent and reasoned person, surely you see that?



One referendum does not preclude another.


Well actually it does when the outcome of the first referendum hasn't been enacted upon yet.



Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.


Absolutely.
But if someone who voted Conservative at the last General Election has now changed his mind he can't simply demand another General Election immediately because he's changed his mind, he has to wait until the new government has been formed and the next General Election is held.

Why would that principle be any different for this referendum?


Referendums are undemocratic now?


They are when they are not acted upon.



This isn't a game, there no rules that x must happen before why and absolutely no reason why we can't have a second referendum.

It's arguably the biggest change to the UK since the 1940s. There is every reason to make the majority support the final decision.


The majority did support the decision. 17.4 million of us. You see referendums work like this.....


And a second one would work the same way. Unless you are scared of democracy.



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:25 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: rhynouk

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



How about giving the people of the UK a chance to say what they want?


But they have, they voted to come out....that's pretty straight forward really isn't it.



Or are you scared about what the result would be?


But we've had the vote, why would anyone be scared of something that's already happened...it literally doesn't make sense.



Referendums are denying the will of the people?


No.
But failing to enact the result of a referendum would be denying the will of the people.



Who suggested that?


Everyone who is demanding another referendum before the result of the first referendum has been enacted.

I know you are an intelligent and reasoned person, surely you see that?



One referendum does not preclude another.


Well actually it does when the outcome of the first referendum hasn't been enacted upon yet.



Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.


Absolutely.
But if someone who voted Conservative at the last General Election has now changed his mind he can't simply demand another General Election immediately because he's changed his mind, he has to wait until the new government has been formed and the next General Election is held.

Why would that principle be any different for this referendum?


Referendums are undemocratic now?


They are when they are not acted upon.



This isn't a game, there no rules that x must happen before why and absolutely no reason why we can't have a second referendum.

It's arguably the biggest change to the UK since the 1940s. There is every reason to make the majority support the final decision.


The majority did support the decision. 17.4 million of us. You see referendums work like this.....


And a second one would work the same way. Unless you are scared of democracy.


I don't get the whole scared of democracy thing. Don't you believe in democracy?

The people voted. Deal with it. Life sucks for those who voted to stay. You know some people have come to terms with it. I suggest you do the same.

I'd hate to see you go on a game show and get voted off. Would you refuse to leave the stage unless there was another vote?



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:30 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Look all that crap the pew ew is threatening you all with is just that threats why because economically the rest of pew eww is for the most part are in very dire straits and Merkel letting millions of migrant men enter the eu from middle East claiming to be refugees was stupid now they got all these guys wanting handouts and housing and the eu member states that were made to accept them are stuck footing the bill. But don't worry if they do act like idiots the Americas and Asia will still trade with you we don't give 2 donkey sized turds what Merkel and her eu think.



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:32 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot



There is every reason to make the majority support the final decision.


But the majority final decision was to come out of the EU yet now the minority are wishing to deny that democratic vote and expression of self-determination.

There was never ever valid discussion or suggestion of a subsequent second referendum being required prior to the referendum.

The democratically determined will of the people has to be enacted upon.

If not then there is simply no point in continuing with the pretence that we live in a democratic country and should politically neuter ourselves, commit treason and transfer all sovereignty to the EU.



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:33 AM
link   

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Solo, all you do is whinge and whine about how its those bastard English who are at fault for all of Scotland's woes.
And then you blabber on about Britain's colonial past.

FFS grow up.

Your ancestors begged to enter into a Union with England.
And the Scots played a full and active roll in British colonialism.
Many Scots entered The British Army and Royal Navy and were fully complicit in carrying out these acts of barbarity you seem so obsessed with.
And many Scots made huge amounts of money out it whilst ordinary Scots were little better off than paupers - exactly the same as the vast majority of English and Welsh and Irish.

You aren't unique.
We've all been shat on...the difference is we don't permanently whine on and on and feel sorry for ourselves and blame anyone and everyone else.

You seem to have some romanticised notion that an independent Scotland will be some sort of idyllic utopia.
Guess what, the rich will still be screwing the ordinary men and women over and you won't have the English to blame then.

Oh, and those EU overlords will be dictating everything after they've stripped all authority away from democratically elected national assemblies.





Well said.

There is nothing wrong with Nationalism and I respect the Scottish, their flag and our union. We are stronger as a whole and if you look at an isolated Scotland in Europe it would be grim.



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:36 AM
link   

originally posted by: rhynouk

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: rhynouk

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



How about giving the people of the UK a chance to say what they want?


But they have, they voted to come out....that's pretty straight forward really isn't it.



Or are you scared about what the result would be?


But we've had the vote, why would anyone be scared of something that's already happened...it literally doesn't make sense.



Referendums are denying the will of the people?


No.
But failing to enact the result of a referendum would be denying the will of the people.



Who suggested that?


Everyone who is demanding another referendum before the result of the first referendum has been enacted.

I know you are an intelligent and reasoned person, surely you see that?



One referendum does not preclude another.


Well actually it does when the outcome of the first referendum hasn't been enacted upon yet.



Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.


Absolutely.
But if someone who voted Conservative at the last General Election has now changed his mind he can't simply demand another General Election immediately because he's changed his mind, he has to wait until the new government has been formed and the next General Election is held.

Why would that principle be any different for this referendum?


Referendums are undemocratic now?


They are when they are not acted upon.



This isn't a game, there no rules that x must happen before why and absolutely no reason why we can't have a second referendum.

It's arguably the biggest change to the UK since the 1940s. There is every reason to make the majority support the final decision.


The majority did support the decision. 17.4 million of us. You see referendums work like this.....


And a second one would work the same way. Unless you are scared of democracy.


I don't get the whole scared of democracy thing. Don't you believe in democracy?

The people voted. Deal with it. Life sucks for those who voted to stay. You know some people have come to terms with it. I suggest you do the same.

I'd hate to see you go on a game show and get voted off. Would you refuse to leave the stage unless there was another vote?


It's not a game show and it's not me. It's a major constitutional and economic change and it's the entire country. Can you spot the difference?



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:38 AM
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originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Soloprotocol


Your ancestors begged to enter into a Union with England.





Indeed we did not. Maybe you need to brush up on the reason Scotland ended up part of this rotten kingdom. Try Alien act 1705 for starters.



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:39 AM
link   

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



There is every reason to make the majority support the final decision.


But the majority final decision was to come out of the EU yet now the minority are wishing to deny that democratic vote and expression of self-determination.

There was never ever valid discussion or suggestion of a subsequent second referendum being required prior to the referendum.

The democratically determined will of the people has to be enacted upon.

If not then there is simply no point in continuing with the pretence that we live in a democratic country and should politically neuter ourselves, commit treason and transfer all sovereignty to the EU.



The people denying democracy are those who refuse to consider a second referendum.

You previously have said you support greater direct democracy but you now refuse to consider it for the most important piece of legislation in decades.

There are no set rules for referendums in what we laughing call the UK constitution therefore we should be absolutely certain that leaving is the will of the people.



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:39 AM
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a reply to: Forensick

I have a lot of Scottish friends and love visiting the place.
They are great people, fantastic company, loyal friends and I have enormous respect for them.

There is far more that unites us than what divides us.
We are stronger together and we should ALL view this as an opportunity to turn our countries and Union into something we can ALL be proud of free from many of the things and people that have previously held us back and kept us down.



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:39 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

Yep, and the majority voted to leave the EU.
Unlucky.
I knew exactly what the potential outcomes were, including WTO rules if no fair deal could be struck. I voted leave with that in mind.

You won't get your second referendum by moaning on ATS though.
TICK TOCK TICK TOCK....



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:41 AM
link   

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: rhynouk

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



How about giving the people of the UK a chance to say what they want?


But they have, they voted to come out....that's pretty straight forward really isn't it.



Or are you scared about what the result would be?


But we've had the vote, why would anyone be scared of something that's already happened...it literally doesn't make sense.



Referendums are denying the will of the people?


No.
But failing to enact the result of a referendum would be denying the will of the people.



Who suggested that?


Everyone who is demanding another referendum before the result of the first referendum has been enacted.

I know you are an intelligent and reasoned person, surely you see that?



One referendum does not preclude another.


Well actually it does when the outcome of the first referendum hasn't been enacted upon yet.



Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.


Absolutely.
But if someone who voted Conservative at the last General Election has now changed his mind he can't simply demand another General Election immediately because he's changed his mind, he has to wait until the new government has been formed and the next General Election is held.

Why would that principle be any different for this referendum?


Referendums are undemocratic now?


They are when they are not acted upon.



This isn't a game, there no rules that x must happen before why and absolutely no reason why we can't have a second referendum.

It's arguably the biggest change to the UK since the 1940s. There is every reason to make the majority support the final decision.


The majority did support the decision. 17.4 million of us. You see referendums work like this.....


And a second one would work the same way. Unless you are scared of democracy.


Answer me this question if you will, with honesty.

If in the 2015 Referendum for Scotland to become independent, if the result had been a " Scotland To Become Independent " but only by a narrow margin, would you have been calling for a second referendum ?



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:41 AM
link   

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: ScepticScot

Yep, and the majority voted to leave the EU.
Unlucky.
I knew exactly what the potential outcomes were, including WTO rules if no fair deal could be struck. I voted leave with that in mind.

You won't get your second referendum by moaning on ATS though.
TICK TOCK TICK TOCK....


You don't stop one by going tick tock on ATS either.



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:47 AM
link   

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: rhynouk

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



How about giving the people of the UK a chance to say what they want?


But they have, they voted to come out....that's pretty straight forward really isn't it.



Or are you scared about what the result would be?


But we've had the vote, why would anyone be scared of something that's already happened...it literally doesn't make sense.



Referendums are denying the will of the people?


No.
But failing to enact the result of a referendum would be denying the will of the people.



Who suggested that?


Everyone who is demanding another referendum before the result of the first referendum has been enacted.

I know you are an intelligent and reasoned person, surely you see that?



One referendum does not preclude another.


Well actually it does when the outcome of the first referendum hasn't been enacted upon yet.



Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.


Absolutely.
But if someone who voted Conservative at the last General Election has now changed his mind he can't simply demand another General Election immediately because he's changed his mind, he has to wait until the new government has been formed and the next General Election is held.

Why would that principle be any different for this referendum?


Referendums are undemocratic now?


They are when they are not acted upon.



This isn't a game, there no rules that x must happen before why and absolutely no reason why we can't have a second referendum.

It's arguably the biggest change to the UK since the 1940s. There is every reason to make the majority support the final decision.


The majority did support the decision. 17.4 million of us. You see referendums work like this.....


And a second one would work the same way. Unless you are scared of democracy.


Answer me this question if you will, with honesty.

If in the 2015 Referendum for Scotland to become independent, if the result had been a " Scotland To Become Independent " but only by a narrow margin, would you have been calling for a second referendum ?



That was discussed earlier in this thread I think. I absolutely believe there should be set rules that apply in major referendums.

In the absence of that I think where result is narrow then going back to the people to confirm the decision is correct.

As I have stated multiple times on here my reasons for supporting independence aren't based in nationalism, but because I see no real hope for reform within the UK. The lack of clarity round referendums is just another example of that.


edit on 22-9-2018 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:51 AM
link   

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

After 800 years of British colonialism and barbarity, you expect the Irish to do the UK a Solid.



You are constantly bringing up British colonialism ...... and where were the

Scots in this?

Do some research I'll start you off with a Scot about another Scot in colonial India......

William Dalrymple who has researched and written books based on facts in colonial

times.....




Ecosse: Cover story: From Raj to riches
William Dalrymple risked everything when he went in pursuit of the real story behind a love affair between an upstanding member of the British Raj and a beautiful Indian princess, reports David Stenhouse

July 27 2003, 1:00am,
The Sunday Times

It is a lesson the Scottish writer William Dalrymple was forced to learn. In the process of researching White Mughals, his book on 18th-century India, he came close to financial ruin.

Now the book is finished and an American television company wants to make a film of it. The deal may make him rich beyond a maharajah’s wildest dreams.


www.thetimes.co.uk...

NOT IN THE DAILY FAIL



posted on Sep, 22 2018 @ 06:52 AM
link   

originally posted by: proteus33
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Look all that crap the pew ew is threatening you all with is just that threats why because economically the rest of pew eww is for the most part are in very dire straits and Merkel letting millions of migrant men enter the eu from middle East claiming to be refugees was stupid now they got all these guys wanting handouts and housing and the eu member states that were made to accept them are stuck footing the bill. But don't worry if they do act like idiots the Americas and Asia will still trade with you we don't give 2 donkey sized turds what Merkel and her eu think.



You have a little bit of froth on your .. chin. Yes, exactly there.

Grow up. The world is watching and the future of the UK isn't looking well.




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