Citizen scoring.

a reply to: Aazadan

The greatest crime to society is not murder, theft, or property damage. It is people who have the potential to do great things, that squander the potential and do nothing with it.

No , this citizen scoring system would be the greatest of crimes to society and would damage people's potential .
Those you punished might well give up trying infuture , their self esteem would be damaged and may not recover whereas they could achieved later in life without unnecessary criticism and pain .

You're messing around with peoples values : you're trying to tell them to value something that you value , or they will not be valued by you or others . You think you'll have the right to tell others not to value them . That's big problem ..
You're telling people what to value , which is the country , the state , other people's misguided opinions of them ...
Another huge issue.

I would adjust scoring for them to be based on their kids behavior. Low test scores is a mark against the parent. Poor behavior is a mark against the parents. And so on. Encourage good parenting again.

Poor test scores and poor behaviour of children at school may come down to many variables , not just poor parenting .
What if those poor results were down to a teacher molesting the child , or even just unsuitable foods for the child being served to them at lunchtime ?Even when those variables may provide a proper explanation for child's poor performance You would STILL go and blame the parents? You would punish them , a child's parents , and that is very wrong of you indeed . On so many levels . Are you trying to see what you can get away with ?

You would create a miserable society in short order , you would destroy the meaning in life for everyone .
You're propounding insanity but you're convinced of your own rationality .

originally posted by: DoctorBluechip
You would create a miserable society in short order , you would destroy the meaning in life for everyone .

It would probably be miserable, but happiness is not a requirement for a high achieving society.

Also, given how many people in life are already unhappy, as evidenced by self destructive behaviors, depression, and the amount of medicine people take I don't see where we have anything to lose on that front.

a reply to: Aazadan

I agree with your assessments about our current demise, but not the solution. I don't want to live in a country where citizens can punish one another, and essentially ostracize others for not following a cookie-cutter lifestyle.
It's like giving a fruit-loop to a puppy for obeying.

NO THANKS.

*shudders with repulsion*

a reply to: Aazadan

If you wrongly punish children's parents , and that already happens often enough already , you will destroy their capacity to cope with life at all .
Far from producing achievement, you will degrade and ruin people's potential . You'll turn them into emotional wrecks .

Address your proposed adjustments to the values which societies and individuals would hold, as a sociologist and a psychologist would.
You're expecting to change established norms and values . You falsely hope that adjustment is possible , when it is clearly the case that it is not . You'll end up ruining everyones life like this

originally posted by: DoctorBluechip
Address your proposed adjustments to the values which societies and individuals would hold, as a sociologist and a psychologist would.

Ok, so start suggesting criteria.

a reply to: Aazadan

Currently , i get to place value on things like my time . What you're expecting me to do , is adjust the value i place on my time , to include the value which you place on my time . You're thus expecting me to hold less value on my own values , to compensate for your values .

Secondly , you're expecting me to value what other people, including the state and companies , value . And that means that I have to adjust my valuations to compensate for them as well . Thus you're expecting me to devalue my estimation of value, in default to others.

What I value is up to me , currently , that's the norm being held . You're trying to change the norm to what you decree it should be .

I'm resistant to that . Anyone with half a brain would be resistant to that .

Thats an individuals perspective , but you're trying to change the values and the norms , of the whole of society . Just because we live in an online world< that's the reason you get to even think that this is possible .
I'm going to accuse you of having the ideas of a megalomaniac because of this . You don't have the right to do this . China's a different matter

a reply to: Aazadan

Citizen scoring?

Terrible Idea.

The amount of mental illnesses that will arise isn't worth the effort and crime will go up.
An unfortunate kid whose house burns down can no longer afford schooling, does that make them low graded citizens?
People can work really hard if they're self disciplined but being labelled by a government that scores them, it's just going to cause depression.

originally posted by: DoctorBluechip
What I value is up to me , currently , that's the norm being held . You're trying to change the norm to what you decree it should be .

How is that any different from a credit score which assigns weights to various financial habits of yours and uses them to make all kinds of decisions regarding your character, reliability, and financial status.

I'm going to accuse you of having the ideas of a megalomaniac because of this.

I don't deny that. I'm a very power hungry individual.

originally posted by: StrangeQuark96
An unfortunate kid whose house burns down can no longer afford schooling, does that make them low graded citizens?

People overcome disadvantages all the time. Years ago I had the option of affording tuition or housing. I ended up living on the streets so that I could attend university.

I'm a very self aware person. In my field I am below average as far as talent goes, and intellectually I'm lacking compared to my peers as well. If I can do it, anyone can do it.

Better yet, if people are pushed to improve themselves for the sake of society, then we'll enact better policies, and eventually a comprehensive social safety net will find it's way into existence and no one would ever have to worry about being homeless or not having access to education ever again.

The state should be subservient to the citizen.
This idea of citizen scoring just screams State before citizen.

It's terrible, authoritarian, nightmarish.

a reply to: Aazadan

Well don't forget where Hitler ended up , or the end of Mussolini

a reply to: Aazadan

It's simple really. You want to force your values on everyone else and are looking for a way to bypass individual freedoms using punishment as a tool. I think everyone understands what you are after here.

I'd suggest reading the history of the former Soviet Republic and how they used the Party and a reward / punishment system as a means of control. You play ball your a Party insider and get privileges, you don't walk in lockstep, your life is miserable. It did not work out too well for them.

North Korea has such a system only they punish peoples families at the same time for multiple generations to control behavior absolutely.

Punishing people for listening to or reading speech you don't like is controlling speech. Your silly circular argument is absurd and I suspect you know that. I can almost see you smiling and laughing as you type. Is this whole conversation satire from you?

originally posted by: Blaine91555
It's simple really. You want to force your values on everyone else and are looking for a way to bypass individual freedoms using punishment as a tool. I think everyone understands what you are after here.

No, I'm not. I'm pretty sure most people do not agree with my values. I've said multiple times, that this is something that people as a whole should vote on, and continue to vote and revise each year.

I'd suggest reading the history of the former Soviet Republic and how they used the Party and a reward / punishment system as a means of control. You play ball your a Party insider and get privileges, you don't walk in lockstep, your life is miserable. It did not work out too well for them.

That's not what I'm going for here at all. No social, political, etc... advantages. That's why I mentioned using taxation. Anyone could afford double taxes without taking too big of a hit. If you're average you're in roughly the same place as now. If you work to improve, you get a bonus. If you're a horrible person, you end up giving back to society in other ways.

Punishing people for listening to or reading speech you don't like is controlling speech. Your silly circular argument is absurd and I suspect you know that. I can almost see you smiling and laughing as you type. Is this whole conversation satire from you?

On some level it's controlling speech, but on another level it's also not censoring it. No one is saying these people can't publish it or that other's cant access it. It doesn't wind up silenced.

a reply to: Aazadan

You don't think the threat of punishment is silencing speech?

Come on, get real. You read the wrong site or say the wrong things and your taxes get doubled. That my friend is punishing for speech to control it. In fact you are, as I said in my first post wanting to use Pavlovian methods to control people. That is dark and scary. Behavioral conditioning is exactly what you are suggesting. Whether you do it with taxes or a gun, it's the same thing.

God I hope you are being satirical, if not .....

a reply to: Blaine91555

The OP stated, "What is wrong with social engineering" to a previous post of mine.


I personally couldn't find it in myself to comment further since this (the OP's) approach was so disturbing.

a reply to: Aazadan
The competition issue is what people who favor he scoring system in China were raving about. I think it's rather preemptive assumption this will be positive. Imagine how many people in the US have problems due to credit scoring issues-especially ones that should not be having due to errors, theft of SS numbers and more, a China-like scoring system will make issues even more complicated.


Crony Capitalism is flawed. And No I don't mean "and that we need to overturn the very concept of ownership".

a reply to: angeldoll

Exactly, look at the bi partisan divide. Imagine being scored lesser on their social score because they are vocal or required to state their voting party.

a reply to: Aazadan

Eff happiness.

So says the person who is obviously not happy, jealous of those who might be, and thinks no one should be happy because it's not important. *snort*

You have to be the most miserable person out there.

You certainly exemplify the socialist saying that it's the equal sharing of misery.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Nothin
Oh crap!! Just had a flashback.
This is the 'poster' whom actually wrote that we need not teach children critical thinking, because ..."thinking is not necessary"..., and that 'folks don't need to learn about growing and catching food, because all sane people know that food comes from grocery stores' (paraphrased).

ATS thread on education

Feels more like a psyop, or AI trying to gauge how humans react to NWO ideas.

Subsistence is not a useful skill. Knowing how to engage in commerce and exchange something for food is.

If you do not possess both the knowledge and the means to grow food on an industrial scale, it is not useful. Under 1% of the population is currently farmers, and that number is falling.

Sorry: am not interested in helping AI to better understand humans, and human values.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
God I hope you are being satirical, if not .....

I am not. We talk about training people all the time. Everyone does it. Job training, skills training, training to behave in society.