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BREAKING: President Trump to Declassify Carter Page FISA Docs TODAY

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posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:09 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Grambler

Yup I totally get all of that and I am not arguing against it

All I am saying that even if this has come from the poisonous tree, if there is evidence of wrong-doing its still wrong doing.

If the police brake down your door to search your place without a warrant, just because they are bored and find you standing over a dead body with your finger prints and DNA allover the crime scene (extreme example I know), then sure , through the book at the cops if you want but it doesn't mean a crime hasn't been committed



But it does mean the person cant be prosecuted for the crime.




posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:10 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

In theory you are right.

But we are not talking about a dead body here

We are talking about financial crimes, and process crimes like lying to the fbi

The only evidence we have of the lying to the fbi is the very FBI agents who may have fabricated the warrants word for it

So how can we trust them if they lied to get the warrant?

None of the crimes charged or even suggested done by anyone in trumps orbit come even remotely close to the severity of the obama admin using the intel agencies to spy on their opponents in an unjust manner

Yet many people, including the bulk of the media, have no interest in that potential scandal, which would be the biggest in the history of this country



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:11 PM
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originally posted by: DanDanDat

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Grambler

Yup I totally get all of that and I am not arguing against it

All I am saying that even if this has come from the poisonous tree, if there is evidence of wrong-doing its still wrong doing.

If the police brake down your door to search your place without a warrant, just because they are bored and find you standing over a dead body with your finger prints and DNA allover the crime scene (extreme example I know), then sure , through the book at the cops if you want but it doesn't mean a crime hasn't been committed



But it does mean the person cant be prosecuted for the crime.


In the example I cited that seems a bit crazy to me.

Regardless my view on all of this is lets wait and see what the investigation actually concludes and how things play out, lets actually see what this declassified information actually shows.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:14 PM
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No.
When Rosenstein appointed the SC he said openly that there was no determination that a crime had been committed. Obviously he would have had all the input from the FBI.
This means the FBI don't even know if the 'hack' was a crime... or didn't at the time.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:16 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I understand that it seems crazy but it's still how it works. If the only evidence of the murder comes from the illegal act of the law enforcement than it cant be used to prosecute the person for the crime.

This isn't even theoretical its has happened before. A murderer getting off because of the actions taken by law enforcement.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:26 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Actually it does mean that. Every piece of evidence resulting from that illegal search is excluded.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Actually it does mean that. Every piece of evidence resulting from that illegal search is excluded.


Well thats interesting.

So, I am only asking because its not something I am overly familiar with; what would actually constitute it being a illegal warrant (no spin please)



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:35 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Not having a warrant. You need to have evidence, go to a Judge, and the Judge has to agree your evidence is strong enough and issue a warrant.

Kicking someone's door in without cause or because you have a hunch is not a legal search. Any evidence obtained in such a manner is inadmissible. Any information found as a result of something that happened is also inadmissible. An example of that would be you kick the door in illegally, find a receipt for a storage facility, and then get a legal warrant for the storage facility based on the receipt you saw in the illegal search. It's considered fruit of the poisonous tree and all that evidence obtained from the storage facility would also be inadmissible.

Even if you get a warrant, if you lie to obtain the warrant, the defense can get the warrant thrown out and everything is now inadmissible because it was obtained fraudulently.
edit on 18-9-2018 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:35 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Actually it does mean that. Every piece of evidence resulting from that illegal search is excluded.


Well thats interesting.

So, I am only asking because its not something I am overly familiar with; what would actually constitute it being a illegal warrant (no spin please)


To get a warrant law enforcement needs to make the case for the warrant to a judge. It's a separation of power issue. The executive upholds the law but can't act on it's own; the judiciary keeps them in check.

If the evidence presented to the judge to obtain the warnt where knowingly untrue and/or fabricate by law enforcement than the warnt is invalid.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:40 PM
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a reply to: DanDanDat

Right so the FBI go to the judge say we think we could build a case against this dude Carter page, this is our evidence and the judge says, aye, nae danger lads, way you go find out what this boy's been up tae.

If it turns out that evidence has been BS and the FBI knew it was BS then the warrant is invalid and they got the warrant though knowingly fraudulent means and as such anything found as a result of that evidence is inadmissible.

Would it be fair to say then, that if the declassified information shows that actually the FBI's warrant was based on some solid evidence then it wouldn't matter, it wouldn't change a thing. Would I be right in saying that would have to be a judges judgement though?



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:49 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

If they did not lie and were 100% forthcoming and the Judge granted it then it was granted. If they were not 100% forthcoming, such as said the MSN has independent corroboration and showing MSN articles while hiding the fact they are the source of those articles then the warrants should be made invalid and the FBI people immediately fired.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Fair enough does that mean then (this is a discussion I am not arguing....) if nobody gets fired and its not proven that the FBI were knowingly misleading the judge then this would actually backfire on Trump in a way?



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 01:53 PM
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were the warrant based on ANYTHING page would be in jail
the fact that he walks free and has not even been interviewed should be a big clue



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 02:08 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: DanDanDat

Right so the FBI go to the judge say we think we could build a case against this dude Carter page, this is our evidence and the judge says, aye, nae danger lads, way you go find out what this boy's been up tae.

If it turns out that evidence has been BS and the FBI knew it was BS then the warrant is invalid and they got the warrant though knowingly fraudulent means and as such anything found as a result of that evidence is inadmissible.

Would it be fair to say then, that if the declassified information shows that actually the FBI's warrant was based on some solid evidence then it wouldn't matter, it wouldn't change a thing. Would I be right in saying that would have to be a judges judgement though?


I'm not sure I understand your question, so let me rephrase it to what I think you are asking.

If it turns out that the current classified portions of the warrant application against Page turn out to contain information that is true; than it doesnt matter that the dossier was also used?

That because some portions of the warnt application turn out to be correct it doesnt mater if some portions are tainted?

It certainly would muddy the water. And would certainly be hashed out as part of a trial. It could go either way depending on how much was tainted and how complicit law enforcement was in the tainted information.

It doesn't help their case that prosecution is already on record stating that the potentially tainted information was an important aspect of the application. If this information does turn out to be truly tainted I think the prosecutors and FBI will be sunk.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 02:10 PM
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a reply to: DanDanDat

Cool thanks for the information I will keep it in mind



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 02:17 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Fair enough does that mean then (this is a discussion I am not arguing....) if nobody gets fired and its not proven that the FBI were knowingly misleading the judge then this would actually backfire on Trump in a way?


I dont think so; there is realy no down side for Trump.

A) he is guilty and the warrant turns out to be valid. Than this information will make it to trial whether we know about it or not. His actions of letting us know about it now help him to spin it the way he wants for the public at large and certainly for his base.

B) The warrant is not valid ... that helps him a lot whether he is guilty or not.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 02:25 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

You got to think of it this way; the US Justice system is designed to favor the defense. The idea that it is better to let a guilty person do free than punish an innocent person.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 02:52 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Grambler

Yup I totally get all of that and I am not arguing against it

All I am saying that even if this has come from the poisonous tree, if there is evidence of wrong-doing its still wrong doing.

If the police brake down your door to search your place without a warrant, just because they are bored and find you standing over a dead body with your finger prints and DNA allover the crime scene (extreme example I know), then sure , through the book at the cops if you want but it doesn't mean a crime hasn't been committed



What you are inferring is it will still have political value to the Democrats, which more and more its becoming obvious the left just wants to muck everything thing up until they find a hint of evidence and then there will be be 4 talking heads discussing it for hours with Don Lemon on CNN. Doesnt matter if its true as long as it's believed by the Dems political base enough that it looks like you are busy. Said it before no fan of Trump but he isn't stupid either he basically called the lefts bluff. He is better a rope a dope than Ali, and all the left is doing is strengthening his followers and getting even non partisan people saying this isn't what they expect from the DOJ. Question now is how far will it be pushed and how many heads will roll, cause right now the DOJ smells a tad rotten and it looks like they were spoiled by the left while they were in power. Dirty deeds done dirt cheap.



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 02:59 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

In theory you are right.

But we are not talking about a dead body here

We are talking about financial crimes, and process crimes like lying to the fbi

The only evidence we have of the lying to the fbi is the very FBI agents who may have fabricated the warrants word for it

So how can we trust them if they lied to get the warrant?

None of the crimes charged or even suggested done by anyone in trumps orbit come even remotely close to the severity of the obama admin using the intel agencies to spy on their opponents in an unjust manner Yet many people, including the bulk of the media, have no interest in that potential scandal, which would be the biggest in the history of this country


Thank you for pointing out the elephant in the room, cause all of this happened on the previous administrations watch. It goes high up....it would seem



posted on Sep, 18 2018 @ 03:14 PM
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a reply to: putnam6

just heard..mueller issuing another indictment soon. expected to be an OBAMA official.



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