Tell It To The Judge - Choose 1 Incident, 1 Pic, and 1 Film as exhibits of Best Evidence

a reply to: mirageman

The ATS beano

Evidence means different things to different people, that's the problem.

Even if something seems watertight, we have to examine it's origins, whose presenting it and thier potential motives and associations and if thier own bias is leading them too.

Long gone are the days of "pics/videos or it didn't happen" even when they have been presented, usually ends in more questions than answers, sadly...

Exhibit 2: Best Photograph


Paul Trent, Sheridan, Oregon, 11th May 1950

Upon close inspection with a modern high resolution monitor, and my post 1950's eyeballs...

Couldn't this photo be an eclipse? Going to check date and location against Earth to Moon eclipse timings.

If I'm being honest, it looks like the moon, being partially eclipsed, with really bad ancient photo technology*1950/horrible exposure.

Why would 60 children lie and keep up the lie for over 20 years until today?
From its setting and content this is currently the most convincing case for me.

Ariel School, Zimbabwe 1994

On September 16th, 1994 at the Ariel primary school in rural Zimbabwe, 60+ school children described seeing a disc shaped craft land behind the school during the morning break time. Some of them reported seeing two strange beings approach the group. There were multiple sightings of unusual aerial phenomena by thousands of Zimbabweans during this same time period.

originally posted by: SacredLore
Why would 60 children lie and keep up the lie for over 20 years until today?
From its setting and content this is currently the most convincing case for me.

Ariel School, Zimbabwe 1994

On September 16th, 1994 at the Ariel primary school in rural Zimbabwe, 60+ school children described seeing a disc shaped craft land behind the school during the morning break time. Some of them reported seeing two strange beings approach the group. There were multiple sightings of unusual aerial phenomena by thousands of Zimbabweans during this same time period.

I think I saw someone rip that incident apart.. but I agree... that
incident has fascinated me a bit for some time. I really should
research it.

Trent Photos. Interesting "design" on the top. Unusual scratches on the bottom that seem to have nothing to do with scratches on the photo itself.

a reply to: SacredLore

Well it might not be that they were lying. Perhaps just eager to please adults who really wanted them to have seen a UFO with aliens in it. They were interviewed by a UFO investigator Cynthia Hind and details are here :
UFO AFRICA 11-150.pdf

The children saw "a small man with a band around his head in black one piece suit" and a golden shiny object. 60 of 250 children claimed to have seen something.

Bob Shaeffer was critical here:
badufos.blogspot.com...

But it's similar to Westall and Broadhaven too. So I make no judgement on what any of these children saw.

What the problem always boils down to is that witness testimony alone is unreliable. Stan Friedman and plenty of others will always tell you that witness testimony is often accepted in a court of law. Well yes it is. But first there has to be an underlying event that has been proven to have happened. Generally in a murder case you'd need a dead body (or very strong evidence otherwise) before the case would get to court.

So bringing this back on topic the 'best evidence' we have is only good enough to prove that there are sometimes 'unidentified' objects in our skies.

a reply to: SacredLore

Wasn't something....left behind from that incident?

a reply to: Blue Shift

Isn't that one of those coleman lantern or pie tin type photos?
the early days of UFOlogy is absolutely full of them.

a reply to: mirageman

There are sometimes unidentified food remnants in my refrigerator.
That doesn't mean that they came from another planet!

;-)

Shag Harbour

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: mirageman

There are sometimes unidentified food remnants in my refrigerator.
That doesn't mean that they came from another planet!

;-)

UFRs have not enjoyed the same press, true.



Some interesting replies so far - Archivalist's suggestion that Trent's pic is a partial lunar eclipse is the most mind-boggling, but I await his eclipse timetable research with relish!

That the Trents believed it was a secret military op is an important point, at least as far as there actually being a solid, strange craft in the sky. Having telegraph wires nearby has led to volumes of 'suspended pie tin'-style accusations, but they're counterpointed by the Trents' above belief and my own sheer gut instinct about the texture, resolution and feel of the object's location being far higher in the sky - indeed, more so than any other similar pic in the intervening 68 years.

As to WHAT, the military angle fits with US experiments at the time - revealed by the USAF's own Roswell reports in the 1990s. Likely, but not conclusive of course.

originally posted by: ConfusedBrit
Exhibit 2: Best Photograph

Paul Trent, Sheridan, Oregon, 11th May 1950

I think elevenaugusts thread below gave the best analysis for McMinnville:
Thread
PDF Report- 34 pages

originally posted by: mirageman
Well it might not be that they were lying. Perhaps just eager to please adults who really wanted them to have seen a UFO with aliens in it. They were interviewed by a UFO investigator Cynthia Hind and details are here :
UFO AFRICA 11-150.pdf

There were a lot of inconsistencies in the Ariel incident, not to mention it was approached and questioned by those already caught-up in the phenomenon. Hardly unbiased and clear reporting. Many of the questions by Hind were leading as well.

What the problem always boils down to is that witness testimony alone is unreliable. Stan Friedman and plenty of others will always tell you that witness testimony is often accepted in a court of law. Well yes it is. But first there has to be an underlying event that has been proven to have happened. Generally in a murder case you'd need a dead body (or very strong evidence otherwise) before the case would get to court.

And before that body can be used as evidence, the existence of human beings doesn't have to be established first. So the foundation for any courtroom argument of a human committing a crime against another human already exists by way of fact. Humans- scientific fact. Humans committing crimes- scientific fact. Nothing with this ET phenomena is a scientific fact, which is what courtrooms deal with.
The courtroom eye witness comparison is ridiculous and poorly thought out. An equal comparison would be eye witness testimony of bigfoot, Loch Ness monster, ghosts etc. which also doesn't rely on science-fact.

a reply to: SacredLore

Its a top of my list one.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Hey Ecto...

it was some time ago I downloaded all of the Afri Ufo Newsletters, there's some fascinating stories of sightings etc in there. That's the shame with some of the old media (printed) in this day and age of the internet, there are lots of stories and articles that are more likely to be forgotten, purely down to the fact that they haven't been transferred to the new medium.



Also the focus of sightings etc, seems to be mainly focused on the states and other countries apart from some in Europe seem to be forgotten or just not known.

One of the more interesting ones from Africa I came across in some of their earlier issues was the graaf-reinet sighting, there is video evidence and it made the local tv news stations too. There is a guy who does some video analysis also.



Note;
Someone has uploaded all of the issues as PDFs and can be found here;
www.ufoafrinews.com...

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8

The courtroom eye witness comparison is ridiculous and poorly thought out. An equal comparison would be eye witness testimony of bigfoot, Loch Ness monster, ghosts etc. which also doesn't rely on science-fact.

You've credited me with a degree of "thought" I do not deserve, aside from a deliberately humorous and, yes, absolutely unlikely hook to hang three perceived best pieces of evidence on.

Having worked as a Criminal Judge's Clerk for over 20 years, believe me, I know what you're saying.



I'll check out the Trent PDFs.

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

Ooooooh nice. My favourite is by far the HMAS Hobart in Vietnam
www.ufoevidence.org...

I don't have a photo or film.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: Blue Shift
Isn't that one of those coleman lantern or pie tin type photos?
the early days of UFOlogy is absolutely full of them.

Old side view mirror tied with a light fishing line and hung over a wire.

Although I don't think anyone has ever found the exact model. Kind of like the Coleman lantern / George Adamski thing. Close, but no exact match.

The most compelling statements I've heard about the Trent case being legitimate was that the original UFO investigators who looked into it essentially said that the Trents were too stupid and unsophisticated to pull such a thing off. But then again, how smart would you have to be?

But I'm repeating myself from an earlier thread.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Well you've now improved my knowledge of "UFOlogy", thanks!

I'd wondered what common object had been used!

You've transformed it from a UFO to a IHO - identified hanging object.

Kev

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: ConfusedBrit

Ooooooh nice. My favourite is by far the HMAS Hobart in Vietnam
www.ufoevidence.org...

Good call. This 1968 'foo fighters'-style case reminds me of the 1942 'Battle Of LA' considering the general melee and paranoia, except that this case resulted in the tragic deaths of two personnel during friendly fire, as well as seven injured... only for the lights to nonchalantly RETURN continuously for weeks!

Understandably, subsequent sightings were ignored after lessons learned, and there was no evidence of any enemy 'helicopters' having been shot down.

Phenomena akin to Norway's Hessdalen lights (below) could hold a key to the mystery - even if Hessdalen still awaits answers itself.

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

I never connected it to the Hessdalen lights. Interesting thought.