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The Deal With Liberty

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posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 02:13 PM
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The deal with liberty is that justice always follows. That is why we have a seeming two party system cause a libertarian gov. can not exist but can only give life to governments. The reason is because they are polar opposites and you can not have one without the other. Sure before the usa gained independence we were liberty based but soon after justice was needed in order to create our government. The founders knew this and choose instead of governing based on liberty and justice they choose for us to have right vs left debates of liberty and justice.

The main point here is that the more we become liberty minded individuals the closer we get toward having to battle the force of justice that ascends as brute force or totalitarianism. A strong dose of liberty is a great thing in our country and lives but the more wide spread it becomes then the more we have to fight global forces of justice.

I am seeing that a strictly liberty based society can never exist except for a brief moment in time that allows for the birth of a government control scheme of some sort.

Givin that do you see any better choices of existence we could ponder together?




posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 02:18 PM
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a reply to: howtonhawky

I have lost half of my mind reading your post which think is a good solution always



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 02:31 PM
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That ole saying with liberty and justice for all...

Basically saying that we are free to be prosecuted at any point.

It is like the only real freedom we ever knew was while we were surfing the birth canal then the light of justice began to shine on us and with that we were born into sin.

feels like a sunday when we got our fingers crossed hoping that justice is ours and not theirs.



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 02:33 PM
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a reply to: howtonhawky

We were given a mechanism to deal with a totalitarian government... the Second Amendment.

Alas, the time for that solution was lost with the loss of the 10th Amendment in the Civil War.

So here we are... dependent on a pretty much all-powerful government that we need to rely on to fix themselves.

So we try to fix it at the ballot box... our only option.

Interesting times, indeed.




posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 02:40 PM
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a reply to: Lumenari

True but the ballot box still stinks from those things we called politicians that were actually turds.

Someone mistook the box for a john long ago and peeps have been upper decking for quite a while.


As far as tha option to renew the tree of liberty it would take everyone having a goal of freedom and while we bicker among the right and left wings of a corrupt system the world justice league of satan gains strength.

Without law there would be no sin...that means that sin is government based as it masquerades as religion.




posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 02:42 PM
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Thread notes...








edit on 16-9-2018 by howtonhawky because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 03:17 PM
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a reply to: howtonhawky

I heartily disagree -- both in theory and in practice.

Liberty can be protected, defended and promoted by government... And by enumerating powers granted to government, that is exactly what our founding fathers created the framework for within the Constitution.

The root of the problem are those who vote in the folks who will impose their favored tyranny upon the rest of us... Think "no marriage for you" vs "you will bake a cake".... Same coin, different sides.



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 03:25 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea




Liberty can be protected, defended and promoted by government


How about nope?

You can not protect freedom by force lest you become ruled.

Cancels out true freedom and replaces it with the intent to protect certain freedoms by force.



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 03:29 PM
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The best they have come up with is a set of commandments vs a set of government laws set against each other in order to harvest the energy created by confusion.



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 03:33 PM
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Since we are philosophizing perhaps i can get some to perceive the chance we as humans follow the same rules as adam. (atom)

He thrives in a nuclear family yet he desires destruction cause it feels good at the time.
edit on 16-9-2018 by howtonhawky because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 03:37 PM
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originally posted by: Damla
a reply to: howtonhawky

I have lost half of my mind reading your post which think is a good solution always


Also

I have to get used to having someone knowing what i am talking about before i do.



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 03:43 PM
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a reply to: howtonhawky

How about nope right back atcha?

Freedom requires no external action by government... Because true freedom (in accordance with Natural Rights) is what one can do for oneself and by oneself.

Tyranny is what one does to another. Stopping those who would force their will on others is the only action necessary to protect and defend freeedom... And our natural rights.



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 03:58 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea

Freedom and government can not coexist in totality.

You gotta give some of one to get the other.

Give away your liberty for security and you end up with big government.

The best we can do would be to remove the law if the goal is freedom and rely on morality to guide us.

However we lack the morals for that and that is why morality has to be governed and that is the manner in which we give away freedom for an illusion of freedom.


edit on 16-9-2018 by howtonhawky because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2018 @ 04:20 PM
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a reply to: howtonhawky

Again...just no.

Government is made up out of whole cloth by people.... It is therefore what people make of it. There is nothing that forces anyone to violate the free will and determination of anyone, including government people... It can be limited to only using its power and authority to restrain those who would impose their will on others.

Why is that a problem for you? What do you think forces government to do otherwise?



posted on Sep, 17 2018 @ 09:41 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

The problem is that many do not understand the difference in free will and freedom.

You are free to do what is legal within the government.

You are not free if you break the law.

That is not the freedom i was speaking of in the op.
edit on 17-9-2018 by howtonhawky because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2018 @ 10:20 AM
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originally posted by: howtonhawky
a reply to: Boadicea

The problem is that many do not understand the difference in free will and freedom.

You are free to do what is legal within the government.

You are not free if you break the law.


And I'm saying that our Constitution by design strictly limits what government can do... What they can make "law"... And codified laws must adhere to our organic law of nature's laws and natural rights. INALIENABLE rights. The government is constitutionally limited in what they can and cannot do.

We the people are not limited in what we can do for ourselves by ourselves or with other consenting adults.


That is not the freedom i was speaking of in the op.


Well, of course not, because you keep legitimizing government violating our freedom and natural rights under color of law.



posted on Sep, 17 2018 @ 11:19 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

Strictly limits is the key word that denotes removal of some freedom.




We the people are not limited in what we can do for ourselves by ourselves or with other consenting adults.


That is just not true in any form.


I think you are missing my point in the op still.

The op is not saying that the usa is not the best example of freedom we see today but that all government by way of governing remove freedom and no one is truly free.

Government SUCKS freedom.



posted on Sep, 17 2018 @ 12:08 PM
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a reply to: howtonhawky

"Strictly limits" government -- not the people!!!


Government SUCKS freedom.


Not necessarily... Only because we let it.

I can't stop others from doing so, or making excuses for doing so, but I can sure recognize it and call it out for what is.



posted on Sep, 17 2018 @ 12:11 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: howtonhawky

"Strictly limits" government -- not the people!!!


Government SUCKS freedom.


Not necessarily... Only because we let it.

I can't stop others from doing so, or making excuses for doing so, but I can sure recognize it and call it out for what is.


Those are feelings and not reality.

By definition government limits freedom.

Complete freedom is no government.




posted on Sep, 17 2018 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: howtonhawky

Okay. If you want to live in that box, you have that freedom... It's your choice.

If you'd like to explore other perspectives, you might like "Illusions" by Richard Bach... Or "The Four Agreements" by Miguel Ruiz.




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