POLITICS: Canada to reject missile defence

What countries exactly does Canada need to defend itself from? Have there been some threats against us that I have missed reading about?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
What countries exactly does Canada need to defend itself from? Have there been some threats against us that I have missed reading about?

A very good question. I can think of only one country but I wont bring it up here. If I did it would make a stir and hijack a good thread,

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
What countries exactly does Canada need to defend itself from? Have there been some threats against us that I have missed reading about?

None, except the blindingly obvious which I will not mention As for threats, well Bin Laden did threaten us a while back. Nothing has come of it yet and even if it did Missile Defence will not help there

[edit on 24-2-2005 by sardion2000]

According to this article, perhaps this is one of the reasons why?

The federal budget presented to the House of Commons calls for $10.5 billion in the next five years to increase the country's beleaguered armed forces — including an additional 5,000 soldiers and 3,000 reservists — the largest commitment to defense in two decades. It also called for another $807,950 to improve Canada's anti-terrorism efforts and security along the unarmed, 4,000-mile border with the United States.

Typically, socialism and/or socialist governments divert most money that would have been aimed for the military into over-hyped and over-bloated social programs that will eventually bleed and require more money and then even more money to rectify and continue. I think the French, German, and Canadian healthcare systems (social program) are bleeding out what should be going to its national defense and military. If I am wrong, I am sure that I will be corrected.

Personally, why should the Canadian's opt into this deal anyhow? They know that if a missile (ICBM) is targeted anywhere remotely close to the US or at the US, they will be protected because the US will attempt to shoot such an incoming missile or ICBM down regardless. Martin is playing to the Canadian liberal base, as well. The same thing was done with Iraq.





seekerof

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Seekerof]

Ah yes the Socialist Rhetoric yet again. If we don't do it the pure American Capitolistic way we gotta be Socialists, no matter that Canada has succefully had 8 balanaced budgets in a row, life expantancy is also longer in canada(79.3 years in Canada vs 76.6 in US stats from here), is now the biggest supplier of Oil to the USA now, our unemployment is 12.8 % okay maybe not steller, but it points to the fact that alot of people are actively looking for work. If the US had a higher unemployment rate I would be more hopefull for the US economy, however I am not as are alot of my peers in the Investment field. You see Seekerof, Canadians in general have different priorities then the americans, we prefer to have dependable institutions where if we get hurt or sick we don't have to declare bankruptcy after the bill for lifesaving treatment arrives in the mail. If the Capitolist way of delivering Health Care is better how come the Age Expantancy gap between our two countries? Why are we more respected around the world also?

[edit on 24-2-2005 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by Umbrax

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
What countries exactly does Canada need to defend itself from? Have there been some threats against us that I have missed reading about?

A very good question. I can think of only one country but I wont bring it up here. If I did it would make a stir and hijack a good thread,

Aww. You wimp.

I dare you. Do it.

To my knowledge, Canada does not have any enemies and the only nation that covets her resources is right next door. Not to the North.

Cnada does not need some glitz and glory all-shiny-new missile defense system. NORAD is just fine. ... and if NORAD gets gone, that's fine too.

The fact is, if anyone starts shooting off any nukes anywhere in the world, it's pretty much game over any way. What with all the fallout that's already built up in the planet's soil, and rampant cancers world wide, I just do not see what everyone's so hot to protect. Get real. The planet's half dead already and so are the people and animals.

Haven't you heard of atmospheric winds? This stuff gets around.

If you're so hot to protect your nation - why don't you take a good hard studied look at what's in your food, air and water. Then figure out how to protect that. Your first clue: Guns don't work on chemicals, rads, prions or microbes.


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We will deploy. We will defend North America,” he said.

“We simply cannot understand why Canada would in effect give up its sovereignty

these comments are not needed the U.S. Ambassador Paul Cellucci should be fired over these commets.our airspace is to be shared.....

Sardion2000 doesn't speak for all Canadians. The Western Provinces & territories who voted anti-liberal pro-conservative are strong supporters of the missle defence program. We also want a more capable military that doesn't have to rent transport planes from Russia to move our troops or send our troops to desert countries in green jungle fatigues or send them on missions without bullets in there guns. We are ashamed of our government and deeply embarrassed. Our healthcare system is a joke, our own leaders get medical treatment in the U.S. You get put on 5 year waiting lists for MRI scans even if you have brain cancer and get bumped if a famous athelete or MP needs a scan. My father in law is still waiting for his colon cancer / liver cancer surgery and its been a year and a half, now the cancer has spread to his kidneys. Mean while people go to the doctor for free to get anti-biotics for colds & fevers? They go to get slivers and hang nails removed. Senior citizens go to the doctor weekly 'just in case' or cause they are lonely. When ever something is free people abuse the hell out of it. My government takes over 50% of my paycheck and then taxes everything I buy or any service I get performed thus leaving me with less than 35% of what I originally made. I'd rather pay 5 000 a year in medical insurance than support a goverment with over taxation to support a dying system. WHEN ARE CENTRAL & EASTERN CANADIANS EVER GOING TO LEARN THAT SOCIALISM DOESN"T WORK. Just look at cuba or the Ex-Soviet Union.
If it was the year 300 A.D. and the king offered to build a wall around the city to protect from barbarians; do you think people would protest?
Not to mention Russia has had ABM technology in place since 1974. Why is it a crime if North America has the same technology. Russia & china still have nukes pointed at Canadian powerstations and major cities.
Socialisic Liberals are living in la la land!

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
Sardion2000 doesn't speak for all Canadians.

We are ashamed of our government and deeply embarrassed.

And I suspect the majority of your countrymen are equally ashamed of and embarrassed by you.

I am glad your party lost the election.

I truly fear what might happen to the world if Harper and Bush ever got together. Yipes. Death and destruction. No skills. No control. Watta pair that would be.



.

Originally posted by sardion2000None, except the blindingly obvious which I will not mention

As for threats, well Bin Laden did threaten us a while back. Nothing has come of it yet and even if it did Missile Defence will not help there

Quite right, Bin Laden's attack would be from within, no missile shield will stop that.

Yes I know those pesky capitalist New Found Landers are a worry. They antagonize and war against others thereby being forced to spend a goodly chunk of the citizens' tax dollars on bombs, death machines and killing of their citizens and others, then proclaim socialism bad for spending a goodly chunk of citizens' tax dollars on quality of life for the taxpayers. What a backa$$wards way of thinking, i.e. tax dollars is better used for killing not curing.

I am not quite sure how Bush's hairbrained scheme would work, I gather he would plunk his weapons of mass destruction near our backyards and further down the road demand we pay all the expenses to keep his enemies away from him. And I presume those weapons would include shooting down missiles passing over Canada, thereby inflicting the damage on Canada and Canadians rather than on the intended targets. To agree to this makes Canada a target where we are not one now, Bush must think we're stupid.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Bush must think we're stupid.

You're giving him too much credit.



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Well I like socialism better than capitalism, and being a socialist country doesn't make you a communist state like Cuba and the former Soviet Union. The big difference for me is democracy versus tyranny. They system in Canada is good, it prevents becoming a purist in any ideology.

As many people have already said missile defense is not going to do anyone any good. It only takes one nuke to destroy the Earth, not from the explosion but from the retaliation. War is not fought this way anymore. From my angle missile defense is a war defense of the past. Wars are fought and won by infiltration and using the enemies own way of life as a weapon. Manipulations have replaced the bomb.

So if we are venturing in using a obsolete defense like this why is it being considered?

There are many problems with having this Star Wars type of defense. It will cause an arms race in nuclear weapons and in satellite/space weapons. Both Russia and China have already said they will increase its nuclear arsenal and military budget if the US BMD program is deployed.
Imagine a nuclear war in space, the whole planet will be contaminated.
Aside from that Canada would feel like they are under U.S. control. Anyone in the N.W.O forum can see the implications here. I'm not involved with that board but if I have weapons orbiting over me I will pack my bags and move elsewhere.

The missle defense grid for Canada is pretty much unneccessary. Unless a nuke detonates on the 401, very little immediate damage will happen. We are a sparsely populated nation. For example even the interior of Nova Scotia is mostly woodland and you can drive from the Bay of Fundy to the Atlantic coast in an hour. Dire Straits comes to mind, "Money for nothing.........."

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Yes I know those pesky capitalist New Found Landers are a worry. They antagonize and war against others thereby being forced to spend a goodly chunk of the citizens' tax dollars on bombs, death machines and killing of their citizens and others, then proclaim socialism bad for spending a goodly chunk of citizens' tax dollars on quality of life for the taxpayers. What a backa$$wards way of thinking, i.e. tax dollars is better used for killing not curing.

Also if the money is spent on health care/education that leaves me not having to worry about it so i can spend my money on other things (since i would have to spend money on these essentials anyway if they were not), me having money to spend helps local business much more than the military shooting stuff. I would prefer the government didn't tax me at all but if they are going to do it i would prefer they use the cash on things that i can see benefiting me directly rather than spending it on killing people in far off lands. As long as the government doesn't control the actual companies and just pays peoples bills for medical stuff when in certain limits or conditions (e.g. the government will re-emburse you for regular priced glasses from the optometrist but if you want extra expensive ones you have to pay the difference) i can't see it being bad at all. In fact the only problem with our economy at the moment is it's growing too fast and in some areas there aren't enough people to fill all the jobs available. I would like to see anyone make the case that social programs are killing the Australian or New Zealand economy since we have some of the highest grow rates and lowest unemployment of all the first world countries, NZ actually being in the #1 spot and they are beating us because they don't spend ridiculous amounts on military like we do.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Trent]

Thoughts?

"We don't get it," Paul Cellucci said in Toronto.

"If there's a missile incoming, and it's heading toward Canada, you are going to leave it up to the United States to determine what to do about that missile. We don't think that is in Canada's sovereign interest."

U.S. Perplexed By Canada On Missile Defence

Again, Canada is taking the US for granted, IMHO. They know that it is in the best interest of the US to protect Canada, as I mentioned initially in my first post to this topic, being that most of Canada's major cities lie within 200 miles of the US. Given the proximity of those cities to those within the US, they also know that the US coverage will cover them. Martin is not stupid. Its coverage and protection and not a dime spent.

Perhaps, he is hoping that this will help when he faces a leadership vote in a couple weeks? Never fear though, NORAD maintains a number of early warning radar installations in the northern parts of Canada, including in US Alaska....all the 'early warning' we will need. Sure hope those missiles fired to intercept or anti-ICBM lasers are successful. Then maybe many won't have to worry about those 'winds' blowing, huh?




seekerof

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
Sardion2000 doesn't speak for all Canadians.
We are ashamed of our government and deeply embarrassed.

And I suspect the majority of your countrymen are equally ashamed of and embarrassed by you.
I am glad your party lost the election.

I truly fear what might happen to the world if Harper and Bush ever got together. Yipes. Death and destruction. No skills. No control. Watta pair that would be.

Truer words never spoken. Hey Batoche, this is a democracy, remember? Majority rules?

I've got an idea for a missile shield...how about we just educate the US on such principles as 'comprimise' and 'diplomacy' and 'sovereignty'. When it boils down to it, we don't need a missile shield. The US needs one because it goes out of its way to stir things up and cause trouble. We remove the giant bullet magnet we're attached to, and North America is a hell of a lot safer.

DE

Canada isn't going to "educate" the US on "sovereignty." Why?
Cause you just signed one aspect of it over to the US, DeuxEx: Canadian airspace.

Ottawa – Canada's announcement that it won't join the U.S. missile shield provoked an immediate warning that it has relinquished sovereignty over its airspace.

And then Mr. Martin has the nerve to say:

Martin said he would expect to be consulted on what to do about any missile passing over Canada.

Canada Has Given Up Control of its Airspace: U.S. Ambassador

This implies that when or if an incoming ICBM/missile is detected by NORAD, the US will control the decisions to fire at that incoming ICBM/missile over Canadian territory. Also per the article. Does Canada or Mr. Martin wish notification/consultation before it is intercepted over Canadian territory or after a US intercept is in progress?

Still taking the US for granted, eh?




seekerof

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by DeusEx
When it boils down to it, we don't need a missile shield. The US needs one because it goes out of its way to stir things up and cause trouble. We remove the giant bullet magnet we're attached to, and North America is a hell of a lot safer.

DE

i see, and can you tell us why Russia, the Chinese and Europe have a missile defense system and the US doesn't need one?....

Does the Canadian government know something making it a reason for the US not to have a misile defense system? The other side of the world is already safe because they have a defense in place already... yet, according to you, the US is the only one that doesn't need it.... Riiiiiight.....



[edit on 24-2-2005 by Muaddib]

This implies that when or if an incoming ICBM/missile is detected by NORAD, the US will control the decisions to fire at that incoming ICBM/missile over Canadian territory. Also per the article. Does Canada or Mr. Martin wish notification/consultation before it is intercepted over Canadian territory or after a US intercept is in progress?

Still taking the US for granted, eh?

Good find, Seekerof.

I think despite Canada not necessarily having any obvious need for the missile defence, it will ultimately sign on. Relinquishing airspace is a step further to ultimately just saying Yes.

As Seekerof pointed out, it's obvious Canada will benefit from the missile defence regardless of whether it actively supports it or not. But if Martin still expects to be notified of something happening, while having relinquished Canadian airspace in the event of something happening, while also having opting out of participation in the program, it could lead to problems between the two countries, I think.





[edit on 24-2-2005 by parrhesia]

So now that we do not want to participate the USA is now going to proceed to try to blackmail us. Again. Maybe its time to move to New Zealand.