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posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 01:48 PM
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originally posted by: LedermanStudio
It's a four day old issue, but...

Should the NFL be expected to honor the flag of a fallen hero?

...asking for the media.


Let's ask one.


"Americans across the country should be deeply disappointed that many of the ceremonies honoring troops at professional sporting events are not actually being conducted out of a sense of patriotism, but for profit in the form of millions in taxpayer dollars going from the Department of Defense to wealthy pro sports franchises," McCain said in a statement.
NPR
edit on 31-8-2018 by CriticalStinker because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 01:49 PM
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The nfl is a private company. They can do what ever the hell they want with the flag.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 01:54 PM
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originally posted by: narrator


These are also straw men. I said nothing of the sort. Wiping their feet with it, or a burning ceremony on the sidelines? That's waaaay different than taking a knee. (although, it is just a piece of cloth...tons of proud americans where flag underwear, arguably worse than wiping their feet).


Is it...We are talking about a ceremony that puts the flag as the center of attention for respect, right? By protesting you are swapping that purpose away from the flag that you should be honoring and placing that attention on to yourself.

I guess that is my biggest complain in all this and why they would be more positive and effective to do their protesting in the right place. On the job before paying customers is not the right place. Taking the focus of the ceremony away from the flag is also poor choice.




I have nothing to protest at work, because political policies and leanings play no part in my job.

However, I agree that there is a better time and place to protest than during a game. Therefore, removing the cause of protest will end the protests. Problem solved.

People of all sides find fault in every situation. It's the nature of man.


Seems a very slippery slope just to remove the cause, and that is why I suggest history etc...just remove the cause and all is good...I don't buy it.


Them kneeing doesn't really trigger me as I see idiots all the time and I just put them in the same category.


edit on 31-8-2018 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 02:06 PM
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originally posted by: Bluntone22
The nfl is a private company. They can do what ever the hell they want with the flag.


I think that is why Trump was pushing to the owners to install rules. The bottom line is this was a loss of revenue too for the owners, so you are right it is up to them even though Trump feels it is disrespectful to the flag to protest in this way.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 02:29 PM
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a reply to: Xtrozero

It is. You took what I said and blew it way out of proportion with an intentional exaggeration to make it look/sound like that's what I meant, when in fact it wasn't what I said/meant at all. That's the definition of a strawman.

Also, the folks who took knees were very clear about why they were doing it, so no, they weren't wanting attention for themselves, they were drawing attention towards inequality and injustice. Those who saw what the players were doing as just wanting attention for themselves either weren't paying attention to what the players were saying or were purposely not listening to what they had to say...in a way, proving them right.

The "ceremony" isn't about the flag. It's about what the flag represents. You can listen to, and understand, the national anthem without the flag actually being there. If people are interpreting the song as a need to worship a flag, they're missing the point.

Furthermore, there's no requirement to stand for the anthem. A nice thing to do, but not required.

My point is, why is that ceremony present in sports to begin with?

And I didn't say that all would be good if they removed it. The reason they feel they have to protest would still be there, so definitely not "all good". I said that form of protest would stop, because they can't kneel during the anthem if the anthem isn't played, so the "problem" of protesting would go away.
edit on 31-8-2018 by narrator because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 02:44 PM
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a reply to: LedermanStudio


People kneed to chill out over this or just take their football protests during the seventh inning pitch.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 02:51 PM
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originally posted by: narrator


It is. You took what I said and blew it way out of proportion with an intentional exaggeration to make it look/sound like that's what I meant, when in fact it wasn't what I said/meant at all. That's the definition of a strawman.


Seems you want to suggest there is a proper way to protest and some exaggerated, but is burning the flag a way to protest too? I don't see their protest as proper and you do...





Also, the folks who took knees were very clear about why they were doing it, so no, they weren't wanting attention for themselves, they were drawing attention towards inequality and injustice. Those who saw what the players were doing as just wanting attention for themselves either weren't paying attention to what the players were saying or were purposely not listening to what they had to say...in a way, proving them right.


Did their protest takeaway the focus of the ceremony from the flag to themselves no matter the reason, or not? I didn't say they wanted only to drawing attention towards themselves...I said they pulled attention away from the flag that is the purpose of the ceremony, and so not respectful...





My point is, why is that ceremony present in sports to begin with?


The first time was like during the Civil War, it got big after 1918, it is huge at the school level sports. Gives communities a simple moment as a group to reflect as an American.

Now it seems we have a growing sentiment that Cuomo I guess says it best to represent this new American Ideal.



edit on 31-8-2018 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:16 PM
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a reply to: Xtrozero

Yes, I am suggesting that. Yes, burning a flag is a form of protest. You insinuating that burning a flag and taking a knee is on the same level is disingenuous at best. They're both protests, but nowhere near the same level. A Honda Civic and a Maserati GranTurismo are both coupes...but completely different things.

If everyone's attention was on the flag, like it "should" be, then people wouldn't have even noticed that they were kneeling. That aside, it isn't a requirement that everyone stand for the national anthem. So, it isn't disrespectful, because there isn't anything that says everyone present during the national anthem HAS to stand. If someone at the game isn't an american citizen (say...family visiting from Germany), are they required to stand for an anthem that doesn't represent them? If they don't, is that disrespectful? If that would be considered disrespectful to you, would you stand for every single other countries' anthems?

What if some people in that community don't want a moment to reflect on their american-ness, and would rather just watch guys give each other concussions?

I think we should just agree to disagree on this. I don't understand country pride, and never have. The fact that I was born here is something I had absolutely zero control over, so having extreme pride in a song about this country, and feeling disrespected if someone doesn't stand for the song, doesn't make any sense to me. I've had countless arguments with various people about this, and I'm just never going to change my mind. Likewise, you'll probably never change your stance.
We both have valid opinions, I'm just going to leave it at that.

edit on 31-8-2018 by narrator because: wording

edit on 31-8-2018 by narrator because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-8-2018 by narrator because: word good use



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:22 PM
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originally posted by: DeepImpactX
No. Its football, g-dam it, can we just enjoy a good game without this BS popping up?

Players wanna kneel? Who the F cares?

IT'S FOOTBALL!!

Wanna honor a fallen hero? There's a place and time for that, and a football field during the season isnt either one.

Give it a f-ing rest already.


I will give it a rest when the players stop kneeling during the anthem. Until then there will be no NFL in our home.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:23 PM
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originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: Xtrozero

How about we just remove all politics from games? There's no reason to even play the national anthem at a ball game. Stop playing it, protests go away.
Agreed.
The UK only plays anthems for international team games, not top flight commercial games. As a Brit it seems silly that you play the anthem for games between franchises/clubs.
Really silly, and politically needless.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:26 PM
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a reply to: LedermanStudio

There is enough material on this thread for a Monty Python sketch.




posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:29 PM
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a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Exactly! It makes no sense.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:33 PM
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originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: Xtrozero

How about we just remove all politics from games? There's no reason to even play the national anthem at a ball game. Stop playing it, protests go away.
Agreed.
The UK only plays anthems for international team games, not top flight commercial games. As a Brit it seems silly that you play the anthem for games between franchises/clubs.
Really silly, and politically needless.


In the US we play the anthem before ALL sporting contests...even high school games. We have a different tradition than you. Deal with it or not.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:35 PM
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a reply to: Metallicus

Not being a jerk, legitimate question:

Why is this so offensive to you? Did you have no NFL in your home before 2009 (the year players started regularly being on the field for the anthem, before then they stayed in the locker room during the anthem except for special occasions)?

I'm curious about this mindset (not just yours, everyone who holds this belief), because it honestly doesn't make sense to me. That isn't meant to be a dig on you or anyone else, I just don't understand it.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:36 PM
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a reply to: Metallicus




In the US we play the anthem before ALL sporting contests...even high school games. We have a different tradition than you. Deal with it or not.


I think his point was that this "tradition" is weird, and doesn't really make a ton of sense.

And it isn't a "deal with it or not" situation, it's just odd in our opinion. Nothing wrong with having an opinion.
edit on 31-8-2018 by narrator because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: Metallicus




In the US we play the anthem before ALL sporting contests...even high school games. We have a different tradition than you. Deal with it or not


Sounds like a case of insecurity to me.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:39 PM
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a reply to: narrator

The British roll a wheel of cheese down a hill and people fall, crashing after it.

In Spain they take one day and throw tomatoes at each other.





posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:41 PM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

Those are weird too.

But, I'd imagine Brits aren't offended if other Brits don't throw themselves down a hill for the wheel of cheese.

The tomato thing sounds fun. Weird, but fun.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: DBCowboy




The British roll a wheel of cheese down a hill and people fall, crashing after it


Very true.

However politics never gets involved.



posted on Aug, 31 2018 @ 03:43 PM
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originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: Metallicus




In the US we play the anthem before ALL sporting contests...even high school games. We have a different tradition than you. Deal with it or not.


I think his point was that this "tradition" is weird, and doesn't really make a ton of sense.

And it isn't a "deal with it or not" situation, it's just odd in our opinion. Nothing wrong with having an opinion.


It's a bread and circus thing.

Americans love the distraction and mindlessness of US sports and each event has to be preceded by the national anthem.

Some see it as an opportunity to pay respect to their country before the event, but as someone that was on the field for years playing part in the circus, it just gave us a chance to take a piss before the game started.



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