God said kill

It seems to me that in Judeo-Christian theology, all "sins" stem from one single sin- disobedience.
The most direct definition of where sin comes from in the bible is "sin was found in Satan", who of course wished to be greater than God.
Jesus said and the experts in the law agreed that the greatest commandment was to serve God (forgive me if I don't have the exact quote- it's been a while since sunday school).
Man wasn't sinful until we gained knowledge of what was wrong and right.
The law was given so that sin might become obvious.

(if you know what I'm taking about please don't make me get out the concordance and find this crap, but if you really dont believe me, do as and I'll find the verses).

It seems pretty clear in the bible that the only thing you aren't allowed to do is place yourself above God. An interesting point of this is that it makes the law relative in some circumstances. The "letter of the law" is solid, because you couldn't possibly not know that those sins were wrong. Rape is wrong- period. Murder is wrong- period.

Things get interesting when you get into sins that somebody wouldn't reasonably know to be immoral- sins that your conscience wouldn't bother you about in the least. If you can honestly kill somebody without the slightest hesitation or doubt, either your insane (and i dont know what God does about that) or you're not sinning, because you aren't placing your own wants/judgements above God's will. Now if it occurs to you suddenly that God loves your victim and wants to save him- you can't kill him, because you've been warned, and now it would be a sin.

I won't kill anybody tomorrow if I can help it. Killing somebody just because would be a sin. If somebody tries to rob me I'm going to beat him up really bad, but I'm not going to kill him because even just beating him up is sinful enough- Jesus said turn the other cheek. If I'm protecting my life and have to kill him in order to live- I can do that and I for me its not a sin, because in my heart I honestly believe that God would want me to protect my life from an evil man if I really really had to.

Then there's war- subjective once again. Horacid can probably go spray napalm on people or whatever exactly it is that Horacid would like to do if given the chance, and that would be OK as long as Dr Horacid believes that it's a legitimate and just war. I on the other hand would be wrong (even though I'd probably do it) because I don't have the same perfect believe in the war. Who is right; that is irrelevant. As long as neither of us has made a decision which lead us to be blind to the Lord's commands, neither of us would be sinning.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Then there's war- subjective once again. Horacid can probably go spray napalm on people or whatever exactly it is that Horacid would like to do if given the chance, and that would be OK as long as Dr Horacid believes that it's a legitimate and just war. I on the other hand would be wrong (even though I'd probably do it) because I don't have the same perfect believe in the war. Who is right; that is irrelevant. As long as neither of us has made a decision which lead us to be blind to the Lord's commands, neither of us would be sinning.

War sucks, I hate war. BUT, if placed back in that hell, it's win, kill the enemy, break things. The greatest "evil" is to fight a half arse war just killing, and killing with no end. Fight the WAR end it and move on. N korea is an issue because the war was fought half arse. same in Iraq after GW-1. Fighting the war on terror half arse ill turn out the same. Prolonged death and suffering for the planet.

if, i say am god would you deny me ? would you believe in me , so why do people believe in god so much ? over billion humans believe in a book which is just as any other . to many people brain washed

i really dont get this, people often say thx to god . i dont believe this, it is wrong.

we are born from each other so i say thanks too my friend my family ect not to god , if you believe in god why do you still have doubts ? why you on here ? why are you not in church telling god how much you love him ?

this is just alot of bs, it might be true god is their but why doesnt god give a sign to all of us ??

i believe god has greatly failed in hes mission to make us all love him. cuz i believe more in UFOs more then god. at least in UFOs we got videos, hard prove documention that they are around our earthh, what about god?? only brain washed people over 1000 years off bs. dont worry read my words as our human tecknology progresss into a higher level, we will not need god anymore,

GOD MIGHT BE AROUND, YES IN BOOKS ERRR

UFOS ARE AROUND WHERE ? ALL OVER THE WORLD THEIR ARE MORE BELIEVERS IN UFO THEN GOD,

OH YES am the Devil lol hhhh just came from hell yesterday was darmmmmm hot

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
if, i say am god would you deny me ? would you believe in me , so why do people believe in god so much ? over billion humans believe in a book which is just as any other

. to many people brain washed

I believe in God. I couldn't read His Word until I had a one-on-one with him. He's alive, the book is not, His words are.

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
if you believe in god why do you still have doubts ?

There should not be doubt.

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
why you on here ?

I've been sent here. I don't know who or how most of the time, but I do know why.

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
why are you not in church telling god how much you love him ?

I do, but don't need to be in church to do it.

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
this is just alot of bs, it might be true god is their but why doesnt god give a sign to all of us ??

He is giving a sign. You can't see it? I guess I've been looking at it so long that it looks like a gigantic billboard.

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
i believe god has greatly failed in hes mission to make us all love him.

Do not give up hope. There are many who do, more than ever. He wants us to come to him by our will.

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
cuz i believe more in UFOs more then god. at least in UFOs we got videos, hard prove documention that they are around our earthh, what about god??

I have my proof on God, but not on UFO's. I could share my proof but it wouldn't convince anyone because we all have to get our own proof to believe.

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
only brain washed people over 1000 years off bs.

Oh yes, I'm soooo brainwashed. Squeaky clean

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
dont worry read my words as our human tecknology progresss into a higher level, we will not need god anymore,

Love technology and it will leave you on your last day. Just some advice.

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
OH YES am the Devil lol hhhh just came from hell yesterday was darmmmmm hot

Sorry friend, no you're not. I know him when I hear him speak.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by saint4God]

I'm actually in the process of writing a paper/essay on this subject right now and will be posting it in Paranormal Studies... Most likely under the title...

The Old Testament and New Testament Gods (2)

Originally posted by dnero6911
I'm actually in the process of writing a paper/essay on this subject right now and will be posting it in Paranormal Studies... Most likely under the title...

The Old Testament and New Testament Gods (2)

Might I recommend Isaiah and Daniel to help link the two? There's a lot of consistency between the Old and New in the books inbetween.

i read the thread and i understand what you are saying, but i dont believe that the GOD of Moses calls for the death of anyone ...believers or not ... thats the Allah deal..."convert or dead"...

thats why GOD told Moses he didnt have to sacrifice his children to him....

this thing where ppl claim GOD calls for the death of non-believers is probably related to the "serpent Seed" kind of thing...

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
thats the Allah deal..."convert or dead"...

Nope, convert or dead is not the "Allah deal". The Allah deal is that "There is no compulsion in religion".
Since this thread's title is "God said kill", I guess I could chip in with the Islamic version. The only time you are permitted to kill someone is when you (your family, your belief, your land etc.) is being oppressed.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
thats the Allah deal..."convert or dead"...

Nope, convert or dead is not the "Allah deal". The Allah deal is that "There is no compulsion in religion".
Since this thread's title is "God said kill", I guess I could chip in with the Islamic version. The only time you are permitted to kill someone is when you (your family, your belief, your land etc.) is being oppressed.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by babloyi]

Then please explain this..........

" "THE APOSTLE RECEIVES THE ORDER TO FIGHT
The apostle had not been given permission to fight or allowed to shed blood before the second Aqaba [a place where a pledge was made between Muhammad and his followers from Medina]. He had simply been ordered to call men to God and to endure insult and forgive the ignorant. The Quraysh [a leading group of Meccans] had persecuted his followers, seducing some from their religion and exiling others from their country. They had to choose whether to give up their religion, be maltreated at home, or to flee the country, some to Abyssinia, others to Medina.

When Quraysh became insolent towards God and rejected His gracious purpose, accused His prophet of lying, and ill treated and exiled those who served Him and proclaimed His unity, believed in His prophet and held fast to His religion, He gave permission to His apostle to fight and to protect himself against those who wronged them and treated them badly......[a]

The meaning is "I have allowed them to fight only because they have been unjustly treated while their sole offense against men has been that they worship God. When they are in the ascendant they will establish prayer, pay the poor-tax, enjoin kindness, and forbid iniquity, i.e., the prophet and his companions all of them." Then God sent down to him: "Fight them so that there be no more seduction," i.e. until no believer is seduced from his religion. "And the religion is God's,", i.e. Until God alone is worshipped."

END OF QUOTE

[Note: two passages from the Quran are referenced: [a] Sura 22:39-41, which I did not quote, and Sura 2:193]

Two critical points here:

1) in Mecca, where Muhammad was weak, he attacked no one. He only preached his religion and insulted the Meccan's religions. But it was just prior to his leaving for Medina, where he had a limited amount of armed men to support him, that he received this "revelation" and began to use violence to further his desires. Islamic history shows that as Muslims grew in power their forms of violence changed from criminal terrorism to outright warfare.

2) At the end of the quote, it says that Muslims are to fight those who do not worship Allah.

Hey DrHoracid,
I see little in your quote to go against what I said. The Meccans persecuted the Muslims because of their beliefs, so they were allowed to fight. Here, let me quote the two "referrenced" passages:

2:193
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

22:39-41
To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah.. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).
(They are) those who, if We establish them in the land, establish regular prayer and give regular charity, enjoin the right and forbid wrong: with Allah rests the end (and decision) of (all) affairs.

None of these passages advocate fighting "until God alone is worshipped". All they say is that if Muslims are being oppressed, they are permitted to fight, and God will help them.

About your "Critical Point":
Although it is not strictly relevant, I would just like to correct some of the history you provided. Muhammad had no "limited number of armed men" when leaving for Medina. He had almost none. He migrated from Mecca to Medina after most of the Muslims had already left Mecca. He travelled with only one other person. The revealations (The ones you say advocate violence, I say advocate self-defense) were recieved by Muhammad when he was already IN Medina. The Muslims never practiced "Criminal Terrorism" (and here I was thinking all terrorism was criminal), and were only allowed to fight in the conditions mentioned above

[edit on 24-2-2005 by babloyi]

MUHAMMAD'S EARLY TERRORIST ACTS

After moving to Medina, Muhammad began to have conflict with the Jews and pagans in the area. I'll focus on several incidents, not necessarily in chronological order, that illustrate Muhammad as a terrorist.

The first terrorist incident involves Muhammad's command to his followers to "kill any Jew who comes under your power".

From Guillaume, op cit, page 369:

"The apostle said, "Kill any Jew who falls into your power." Thereupon Muhayyisa b. Masud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, 'You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?' Muhayyisa answered, 'Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.'"

END OF QUOTE

This story is also supported in the Sunan of Abu Dawud, Book 13, Number 2996:

Originally posted by DrHoracid
If God spoke directly to YOU and said kill would you do it? Is the God of Jacob and Moses a blood thirsty god? Or did Christ change all the OLD testament and LAWS.

Yes, the god of Moses was a summoned up demon,, who was blood thirsty ....It reached even into the new testament. How?
By demanding the blood of the messiah.

Christ changed nothing,, it merely clued the World in to the facts about these imposters.
Christ entered a "GODLESS" World .... Christ entered a man who just happened to be a JEW ... Very soon afterwards he rebuked all it stood for.

This is hilarious. Book 13 is Kitab Al-Siyam - Book of Fasting. It contains Hadith relevant only to fasting. It is obvious that referrence you provided is bogus.

Anyway, I am going to bed now. If you have any more questions, you will have to wait till morning for a reply .

Originally posted by ShawNee922
Yes, the god of Moses was a summoned up demon,, who was blood thirsty ....It reached even into the new testament. How?
By demanding the blood of the messiah.

Christ changed nothing,, it merely clued the World in to the facts about these imposters.
Christ entered a "GODLESS" World .... Christ entered a man who just happened to be a JEW ... Very soon afterwards he rebuked all it stood for.

Please explain these statements. It is rather 'circular" logic and I haven't ever heard such a theory.

By the way how often do you shave your head?

double post, sorry

[edit on 24-2-2005 by ShawNee922]

Originally posted by Mr Alexander
if you believe in god why do you still have doubts ? why you on here ? why are you not in church telling god how much you love him ?

Because I do not believe 'god'(i say father) is hanging out around any god forsaken churches... Good enough?
The word synagogue in its original form does not denote a building made by hand but rather a body made by procreation. Flesh and spirit brought together.
from Greek synagOgE assembly, synagogue, from synagein to bring together

Originally posted by Mr Alexander we are born from each other so i say thanks too my friend my family ect not to god ,
this is just alot of bs, it might be true god is their but why doesnt god give a sign to all of us ??

There are signs everywhere, the sun the moon, the stars..

Originally posted by Mr Alexander

i believe god has greatly failed in hes mission to make us all love him. cuz i believe more in UFOs more then god. at least in UFOs we got videos, hard prove documention that they are around our earthh, what about god?? only brain washed people over 1000 years off bs. dont worry read my words as our human tecknology progresss into a higher level, we will not need god anymore,

So you DO believe in the existence of Elohim? These same individuals are the ones who inspired the writing of the Bible... Since this writing was done after the birth and death of Jesus it was very easy to interwine jesus into their sick philosphy.
To say you believe in ET but do not believe in 'god" shows a certain ignorance that no amount of sign'age' could remove from you.
The sign'age' would only serve to convert you to worship of the anti-christ's who claim creatorship.

Be glad you lack a sign....For the kingdom of the father is inside of you and all around you.

Originally posted by Mr Alexander

GOD MIGHT BE AROUND, YES IN BOOKS ERRR

UFOS ARE AROUND WHERE ? ALL OVER THE WORLD THEIR ARE MORE BELIEVERS IN UFO THEN GOD,

OH YES am the Devil lol hhhh just came from hell yesterday was darmmmmm hot

Again , you are merely confused... god rides in ufo's ....
Well, their so called god.
I concur you came from hell yesterday... you were born/killed into it ...

~peace

Originally posted by DrHoracid

Please explain these statements. It is rather 'circular" logic and I haven't ever heard such a theory.

By the way how often do you shave your head?

You ask me about shaving my head because?
I, like Christ, rebuke your spaced out bible teachings?
You are a typical little demon....


I shave it as often as Jesus did.... Ask your pastor/preacher how often that was and then swear by the false doctrine.

People are free to lay claim to Jesus but I choose to lay claim to Christ.... There IS a difference. The one who descends claiming to be Jesus will lack one small qaulity, one that cannot be measured. He will lack the Christ conscious....

Let me leave you with one quote to stir your thought,

" YOU HAVE NEVER KNOWN MY FATHER ..."

These words came out of the mouth of a man named Jesus whom the Christ conscious did descend upon....

He told this to? The MOST religious men on the face of the Earth... Men who knew the God of Abraham and of Moses intimately(do some research).

Of note should be the word NEVER . this word tells us these religious folk did not know the father sometimes only to turn their backs on him when it behooved them BUT rather they were clueless as to the true nature of the father.

Anyone who follows the word of Christ 'religiously' knows in their heart the Church is a den of thieves ... Deny it and take your place in death, your name is on the roster.

As for circular ... It was the only intelligent thing you posted to me.....

For the truth knows no end, it is a world without end(see words of christ) ....
If you can't bring it full circle then you are preaching on a lie....

~peace

Ok, let me understand here. Jesus and Christ were two different beings? It was a pure accident that Christ was born a jew?

Question - what day it the sabbath?

Do you believe in the word of God?

Heres parts from my rough draft... I will go into greater detail ... not to mention I'm not posting all of the paper yet.. I just want to see if anyone is familiar with this story ..

Concerning the comment that the God of the New Testament isn't the Same as the Old is because who the people believe was God back then was actually Satan.. The Apocraphon of John has the TRUE account of "the Beginning... it's a bit hard to understand at the beginning but it's very interesting.. all of it is a whole lot more plausable then the version in the bible...
SYMBOLICALLY it's sort of like this..

"REAL GOD" is "NAMELESS" because None of Us have known him yet (until Jesus)... that's because...

NAMELESS(also seen here as CONSORT) created his wife out of his mind, in his image

"And his thought performed a deed and she came forth, namely she who had appeared before him in the shine of his light. This is the first power which was before all of them (and) which came forth from his mind"

She asked for all sorts of powers... she is known as Sophia of the Epinoia...
but one day she decided that she wanted to bring a likeness of herself (an image of herself) into existance without the consent of the Mother-Father (NAMELESS)

"And the Sophia of the Epinoia, being an aeon, conceived a thought from herself and the conception of the invisible Spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit, - he had not approved - and without her consort, and without his consideration."

and that BEING was Satan... also known as... Yaltabaoth

She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaltabaoth

He is the FIRST Archon to steal a great power from his mother.

"And he removed himself from her and moved away from the places in which he was born"

He left their area... assumed power for himself and created the Authorities... (12 of them)
"but he did not send forth from the power of the light which he had taken from his mother, for he is ignorant darkness"

"He became strong and created for himself other aeons with a flame of luminous fire which (still) exists now"(The sun)
"And he joined with his arrogance which is in him and begot authorities for himself"

he created 12 of them according to text. and each of them created 7 Powers for themselves..

"and the powers created for themselves six angels for each one until they became 365 angels"

""And having created [...] everything, he(Yaltabaoth) organized according to the model of the first aeons which had come into being, so that he might create them like the indestructible ones."

"Not because he had seen the indestructible ones, but the power in him, which he had taken from his mother, produced in him the likeness of the cosmos. And when he saw the creation which surrounds him, and the multitude of the angels around him which had come forth from him, he said to them, 'I am a jealous God, and there is no other God beside me.' But by announcing this he indicated to the angels who attended him that there exists another God. For if there were no other one, of whom would he be jealous? "

"Then the mother began to move to and fro. She became aware of the deficiency when the brightness of her light diminished. And she became dark because her consort had not agreed with her."

Now Yaltabaoths' mother became aware that he stole her power and she was angry with herself and repented and became shameful

"And she was overcome by forgetfulness in the darkness of ignorance and she began to be ashamed. And she did not dare to return,"(to The Nameless)

"And the arrogant one (YaltaBaoth) took a power from his mother. For he was ignorant, thinking that there existed no other except his mother alone. And when he saw the multitude of the angels which he had created, then he exalted himself above them"

(Thats when the God in Regular Genesis say I am the Only God, and I am a Jealous God)

"And when the mother recognized that the garment of darkness was imperfect, then she knew that her consort(The NAMELESS) had not agreed with her. She repented with much weeping. And the whole pleroma heard the prayer of her repentance, and they praised on her behalf the invisible, virginal Spirit. And he consented; and when the invisible Spirit had consented, the holy Spirit poured over her from their whole pleroma. For it was not her consort who came to her, but he came to her through the pleroma in order that he might correct her deficiency. And she was taken up not to her own aeon but above her son, that she might be in the ninth until she has corrected her deficiency.

"And a voice came forth from the exalted aeon-heaven: 'The Man exists and the son of Man.' And the chief archon, Yaltabaoth, heard (it) and thought that the voice had come from his mother. And he did not know from where it came. And he taught them, the holy and perfect Mother-Father, the complete foreknowledge, the image of the invisible one who is the Father of the all (and) through whom everything came into being, the first Man. For he revealed his likeness in a human form.

What happened there is, The Nameless heard her prayers and had pity on her and appeared to her in a human form, and spoke to her and her creations and explained "REALITY" and Yaltabaoth heard it thought it was his mom...
So then Yaltabaoth said to his authorities...

'Come, let us create a man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that his image may become a light for us.' And they created by means of their respective powers in correspondence with the characteristics which were given. And each authority supplied a characteristic in the form of the image which he had seen in its natural (form). He created a being according to the likeness of the first, perfect Man. And they said, 'Let us call him Adam, that his name may become a power of light for us.'

At the beginning it was The Nameless who made his companion... They both decided to create "a child" which is the first begotten son... (Jesus) and then later NAMELESS' Companion decided to make "a child" for herself .. only, without the Nameless' permission... so "Satan" or Yaltabaoth is in a way Jesus' brother.

Also I would like to mention that through this paper, (what's visible) We (what we know as humans) haven't even made it to earth yet... so consider this kind of like part 1.

[edit on 24/2/05 by dnero6911]

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
i read the thread and i understand what you are saying, but i dont believe that the GOD of Moses calls for the death of anyone ...believers or not ... thats the Allah deal..."convert or dead"...

The link I provided you shows dozens of Bible quotes where God commands his people to kill EVERYONE in several cities, men women and children so where do you get the Idea that god has never commanded anyone to kill?