I guess it's time for some of the Charlottesville Supremacists to pay the piper.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
My uncle was sgt at arms in the cossacks. They vote deemocrat

was this intended to be a non sequitur?

a reply to: Asktheanimals

It didn't look real to many outsiders either. A LOT of members were defending tiki-torch marches and refusing to understand why so many were appalled by all the swastikas. From outside it looked absolutely surreal to see a rally like that in the USA. To most people Nazis are still Nazis and they were fought down in the war. Seeing them all gathered in a US home town was really hard to fathom.

I've just remembered a Star Trek episode where they landed somewhere ruled by Nazis. It was a crazy juxtaposition with brown shirts and SS guards in the space-travelling future. That eerie contrast was what it was like seeing a replay of Nazi rallying in 2018 America. The sensation has remained and, outside of ATS, I think it's still somewhat dreamlike to see people defending them.

These Nazis are real and they were here before Trump. I get your thinking of false flags and so forth. In reality, the Nazi ethos has always been about violence and attacking minorities. That's how they are in Europe and it's how they were known whilst I was growing up. But the leadership have always been watched by undercover agents in their midst. What I think might have happened was they were infiltrated by Intel guys who acted as agents provocateur.

Over in Europe we've had cases of these agents provocateur participating in crimes and actually driving them. An Intel guy is bound to more educated and have more leadership qualities so they rise in the ranks of protest organisations and extremist asshole groups. So they get in, orchestrate acts of crime and then use the evidence against them.

I'm not saying the Nazis would have behaved any differently regarding all the 'Jew' chants, Sieg Heils and sinister-looking torch marches. It just seems unlikely that Intel guys weren't embedded and who knows if they made a difference to the violence. It actually goes both ways if you look at ghost skins.

a reply to: JBurns

But what you say happened, and what actually happened are different.

You claim that the man created a flamethrower to instigate an assault, but he created a flamethrower to defend himself with. You claim he was an instigator, but he wasn't. The individual concerned was not attacking people for having different beliefs than his own, he was acting in defense of himself. Violently attacking others over their beliefs is not appropriate, unless those targeted are attempting to oppress others, committing acts of violence themselves, of course. But you cannot honestly claim that the man had no reason to think he was about to be attacked, because people were being attacked by the mob he was defending himself from, left and right at the time.

You can deny it all you like, but the reality of the situation makes your utterances irrelevant.

a reply to: fiverx313

No. It was intended to show that people dont vote their stereotype. Yet we all talk in absolutes and platitudes as if its relevant beyond a chalkboard.

a reply to: JBurns

so, I guess the residents of the city should have just all packed up and left for the day, since they didn't have any right to be there???
the guy that was beaten up in the parking garage was a resident of the city, no group had a permit for that parking garage.
and both goups have permits for locations within the city. no one had a permit for a tikki torch march the night before.
who did or didn't have permits for what parts of the city (and they both had permits to be there, somewhere, just different locations) isn't the issue. anybody and everybody had a right to be in the areas outside of those permitted areas. anybody should have been able to have the expectation of safety and peace in a place outside of those permitted areas, having a permit doesn't give you ownership of the whole danged city, just a small area like a park, maybe the right to a roadway for a short period of time. and quite frankly even if there is a march down a street, those who might life on that street have every right to leave their home and walk down the street anytime they want, don't they?
the problem is that no one can expect peace, or safety, anywhere in a place where these two groups meets!! except maybe dc, just before election time.... a year after charlottesville, because the supremacist, nazis, nationalists, ani-immigrationists, whatever you want to call them... don't want it to negatively effect the chances of the republicans in those elections.

no city should be forced to allow their communities to become war zones like this, regardless of freedom of speech. those freedoms come with responsibilities. and if you can't be responsible with them, you very well could end up losing them for awhile.... thus the jail time.... being served in the courts on a case by case basis, to those who abused their freedoms and used them as a means to just go nuts on those who don't agree with them on an issue and beat the crap out of them, run them over, try to burn them with blowtorches, shoot off their guns, punch them in the face and on and on.
justice and our court systems might not be perfect, but it's the best we have, the best the world has ever had..
innocent till proven guilty, well, the courts are starting to complete their work, if you want to prove that those leftist are so much worse than the right, why don't you go and find the court decisions, the guilty pleas and verdicts, that prove it.
that is what I was hoping yous would do... not come back at me with the crap we've already hashed out time and time again, not with the we'll just throw them all under the bus and claim that Unite the Right was really left....
ya see, I don't care if they are left or right really. can you find any of those who were seriously injured that weren't from the city itself... think I have found one. it seems that the city and it's residents bore the largest brunt of this both financially and in terms of physical injuries. some of them will never function as they did before this came to their city!
it doesn't matter to me if these injured were on the right, or the left, or just found it necessary to be out running around running errands that day!!
it was my hope that maybe, just maybe if we came out and showed the price those who were so irresponsible, those who were so violent that maybe we might convince some that it's better not to abuse their freedoms as a means towards violence.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Um...

Just for the record, and to counter this propagandist waffle, there is no equivalency to be drawn between the white supremacists, and those who oppose them. One group is supremacist, the other opposes all forms of supremacy, and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous in the extreme, and can only be an effort to dirty the already muddy waters surrounding the issue at hand.

I typically find your posts entertaining and often enlightening. However, on this occasion, I must disagree with you.

Any white person who shows signs of pride is branded a supremacist. As far as society is concerned white people should hang their heads in shame and accept whatever treatment, up to and including violence, is dispensed upon them by anyone who feels a need to do so. Do these anti-sjw groups call themselves supremacists? Or is that a label placed upon them by those who would seek to vilify their actions? Any group that opposes violent fascist terror in any form is fine by me. I think we need to stop overlooking the fact that "violence erupts at alt-right rally" actually means that the left played a part in that violence. You don't show up, enforce, wearing masks, carrying clubs and pepper spray, to an alt-right rally just to watch. Swing at people, throw fire bombs, and hit people with clubs and then play the victim. Honestly, if I showed up at an antifa rally wearing a maga hat and carrying a club I would get my ass beat and people who heard about it would say I got what I asked for and I should have known better. Double standard.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Any white person who shows signs of pride is branded a supremacist.

There is a lot of that about, yes. However you can look at the websites of some of those C'ville groups and 'white supremacy' was front and centre in their manifestos. Sure enough, I recall there being a few Trump supporters there who were probably pretty normal voters thinking they were at a right-wing rally. The majority were on the supremacy ticket.

There was a very good thread about the diversity of groups in the UTR umbrella and I learned a few things there. Some of them were soapboxing and far-Left literally bull-horned them down and disrupted the speaking. The ones they drowned out weren't supremacists, they were only right wing. It was an eye-opener for me and I've no reluctance to say some of the 'good guys' have become everything they hate - violent, prejudiced, authoritarian.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Fantastic reply.

That is the crux of it: if you show up with weapons for battle, then use those weapons, you likely were intending to play a part in the war.

Employing a flame thrower, however, is an evil that goes beyond the pale. It shows a desire to not defend, but to maim and leave alive for suffering.

10 years ago i walked around unarmed. Today, that isn't the case. You never know when some asshole with a manpurse is going to whip out his hairspray and lighter, claiming they were afraid of me.

a reply to: Kandinsky

In all honesty, it should boil down to assholes intent on doing violence.

People are allowed to be racist. They are allowed to voice racist views. They are not, however, allowed to respond to voicing of any view with violence (barring some far flung regional laws relating to "fighting words" and defending ones honor).

Showing up to protest with weapons of physical violence speaks to intent. And that really makes anyone attending that event and staying more than 5 minutes directly guilty of intending whatever they did.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I get that and I also see more complexity if it's projected into the future.

The platforms these guys stand on are based on forced deportations, violence, segregation, mistreatment of minorities, gays and so forth. It renders the whole thing a trial of conscience and conflict. On the one hand, they're entitled to free speech because it's politics that they're preaching. On the other, the world they dream of is not a world that's good for anyone. I'd even argue it's not a world that's good for them.

In opposing this ideology or potential future, a lot of the protesters have used the exact same tactics. Whilst the Nazi soapbox has always existed on violence, the antifa have adopted the same use of force. I get it.

And that really makes anyone attending that event and staying more than 5 minutes directly guilty of intending whatever they did.

I've passed through the sidelines of anti-Nazi protests in Bolton, Liverpool and Manchester. Quite a few in 30 years. Although I agree with protesting Nazis, hanging around to throw # at each other was never appealing. Over in your neck of the woods, it's liable to end in serious injuries, death and/or prison. 5 minutes is too long lol

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

and the Unite the Right came with weapons also...
and inflicted injuries on the residents of charlottesville the night before, the night of the tikki torch march... a march that wasn't permitted... injuries that at least one might have not fully recovered today.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: fiverx313

No. It was intended to show that people dont vote their stereotype. Yet we all talk in absolutes and platitudes as if its relevant beyond a chalkboard.

okay, but your anecdotal evidence of what a few people supposedly do doesn't back up lumenari's assertion that most KKK members vote democrat.

not that lumenari did anything to back that assertion up, either.

originally posted by: fiverx313

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: fiverx313

No. It was intended to show that people dont vote their stereotype. Yet we all talk in absolutes and platitudes as if its relevant beyond a chalkboard.

okay, but your anecdotal evidence of what a few people supposedly do doesn't back up lumenari's assertion that most KKK members vote democrat.

not that lumenari did anything to back that assertion up, either.

You are right. It does not. Happy to have that settled, since i made no claims of such. As I said: my point was that people from all walks of life and background vote for whoever they vote for.

FWIW, the Cossacks aren't a racist org. They aren't good guys, but there are non-white folks. THe former chapter pres in my hometown was married to a latina.

a reply to: Kandinsky

In opposing this ideology or potential future, a lot of the protesters have used the exact same tactics. Whilst the Nazi soapbox has always existed on violence, the antifa have adopted the same use of force. I get it.

I'm a pacifist, but I get it too. It's not like I don't understand this - heart and mind. When Nazis are marching through our streets with torches, speaking out against the Jews and other minorities, in this country they still have that right

Peaceful assembly is in the eye of the beholder. When does Antifa have the right to openly attack these people? Maybe they don't have a legal right - but what about a moral right?

Maybe not yet - but I still get it

Just a reminder all this started over the threatened removal of statues of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson - without whom it is entirely possible that Charlottesville might have been burned like Richmond or Lexington was. For 100 years these statues have sat there with no issue, now suddenly they make it impossible to enjoy time in the park (really?); land for which was donated by the same man who paid for the statues.

Not long ago the statue of Thomas Jefferson on the quad at the University of Virginia was splattered with red paint as some type of protest. Jefferson, the guy who founded the college was - a slave owner too. When does his statue come down?

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Ah, did not know that XCalibur

Again, I have no desire to see KKK/Nazi terrorists given a free pass.

Those guys are just as bad as ANTIFA, although admittedly they commit fewer acts of violence. Only problem is that when they do commit acts of violence, they tend to be Oklahoma city type terrorist attacks vs. isolated mob/riot type violence. So I suppose they commit fewer violent acts, but the ones they do commit are worse from an impact perspective. Either way it is unacceptable, they are all unacceptable really

So no doubt extremist factions on both sides are problematic. They are a threat to the peaceful political process

a reply to: JBurns

Multiple studies have shown that Right Wing extremists commit way more acts of violence than Left Wing extremists. I know it's not a narrative users of this site like but it's true.

In fact, Right Wing extremists killed more people in the US last year than any other extremist group.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

The majority of the town wanted the statues gone. Should they be expected to forgo their autonomy in favor of the wants of Nazis?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
You are right. It does not. Happy to have that settled, since i made no claims of such. As I said: my point was that people from all walks of life and background vote for whoever they vote for.

okeydoke

FWIW, the Cossacks aren't a racist org.

well to quote a quotable, i made no claims of such.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

In fact, Right Wing extremists killed more people in the US last year than any other extremist group.

Can you cite the source of this? I am speaking from anecdotal experiences only, just based on what I read day to day so I could be mistaken You won't see much of an argument from me, those guys are nut jobs no doubt about it

Multiple studies have shown that Right Wing extremists commit way more acts of violence than Left Wing extremists. I know it's not a narrative users of this site like but it's true.

I know I wrote this earlier too, but can you show me where you get those statistics from? I am curious because if I am mistaken I want to know so I can correct it

edit: I am more than willing to accept that conclusion provided it is backed up with facts. Regardless of which side ends up being statistically more violent, I think it is safe to say that violence from left and right wing extremists is a problem that is not exclusive to either ideology. People from all over the political spectrum should categorically renounce extremism and reject its violent ideology. They are tearing this country apart, exacerbating the divisions and really putting us at risk of a domestic crisis