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guilty until proven innocent - where do you stand?

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posted on Aug, 23 2018 @ 03:04 PM
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Today I would like to bring up and question a gigantic case coming up.

That case is the case of Joaquín Guzmán Loera.


As soon as you read the name one of the first thoughts you had was guilty as hell. Now the entire American justice system is based around everyobe getting a fair trial, and who is presumed innocent until proven guilty. In this case how could it ever be a fair trial? Regardless of your feelings towards him, he still has the right to a fair and impartial jury. Again, how?

1. There is some debate where he should be tried in the first place. Is it possible he didn't even step foot on US soil? If so, would it not be Mexico right to put him on trial and arrest him?

2. Because he is such a known figure in the world, and for decades has been under constant media bombardment of destroying his charecter everyone in the world know who he is, and have been subject to TV programs, movies, books, the list is endless. So how is a man, who for decades has been the face of being the devil incarnate (a lot of such stories, books etc are based on pure speculation) ever be able to have an impartial jury? The people on the jury would have heard of him, that's unquestionable. They would have all the facts before hand from decades of media coverage and will already be led to believe he is an evil man. So again, how is this a fair trial? Does this not against the right of USA constitutions. If he is not given the same rights and an American citizen, he should not be being tried in the USA.

3. The armed guards... I mean come on. Just give him a life sentence already... The jury are already going to be not impartial, and the entire stage is set for him to rot in prison and being a highlight of the 1000 million year war on drugs. But armed guards for the jury? You are installing in them he is not innocent and should be feared. Again how is this helping a fair and impartial jury? Its not.

4. HE told his lawyers to stop fighting the extradition. ...Why? Why would he knowingly get himself sent to america for trial KNOWING he would not get a fair and unbiased trial. Maybe he wants to put his side of the story out there? If he does the world wont listen because its to late due to decades of perpetual character attacks

5. If he has $14 billion dollars, why can they not find a trace of it? not one dollar, one peso, not even a money trail.... that's a lot of money to launder and to disappear is it even possible to clean that amount with it going unnoticed?

6. Finally..The media and government has made the people believe that he has a lot of info on a lot of high ranking people, both in the USA and Mexico because he had deals with them(apparently) CIA, FBI, DEA etc. Now, if he was this untouchable drug-lord, why would he not use ANY of this inner knowledge to exposes, well, god knows who. They claim he had info on small time police Sargent to high rank CIA, DEA and even people in congress. So again, why not use any of this info to get himself out, or to cut a deal. Why are the government potentially putting a man on trial who apparently knows all their secrets and could expose nearly every branch of the USA systems? Maybe it is because...well, he doesn't know and he really did just work the fields?


But before you blast me, I want you to go back to the start of this post, when I first mentioned him. What was your initial reaction? I bet it was one of these

- Anger
- Hatered
- Evil
- Guilty
- Scumbag

Now if it was my point is proven that everyone has already found him guilty before the trial starts, and that is against what i was always told was a foundation of American law. No jury, judge, media will be impartial. From the second the case starts, it will be him trying to prove his innocence in a world that has already assassinated his character.


I'm not going to say if I think he is guilty or not, I'm just putting this out there for a discussion.

Richard

Ps for the people who no me and will be annoyed I haven't updated. My health is as good as it can be, no worse. Just still waiting for a heart to come in for me. Honestly nothing new.
edit on 23-8-2018 by Ghostsinthefog because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-8-2018 by Ghostsinthefog because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 23 2018 @ 03:23 PM
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a reply to: Ghostsinthefog

I really have not one visceral reaction to El Chapo. Honestly I think he and other cartel leaders could very well of come to power through the auspices of intelligence agencies as you mentioned.

The "vanished" 14 billion is fairly easy to explain if its swallowed up by black budgets. Why would he want extradited to the USA? Perhaps his handlers are better able to hold up their side of a deal from stateside?

Is a foreign citizen afforded the same rights as a citizen in regards bill of rights trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty? Just asking, but no, I cant say there wont be bias regarding members of his jury.

Maybe he helped facillitate fast and furious? All utter speculation, but I thought Id spin the wheel.



posted on Aug, 23 2018 @ 03:25 PM
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Huma Abedin is helping his wife launder the money.


Blind Items Revealed #4 December 24, 2017 The wife of this disgraced politician has been raising a lot of eyebrows the past month. The wife of that foreign born A++ list criminal has been a frequent visitor at her home. Huma Abedin/Emma Coronel Aispuro (Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán)


www.crazydaysandnights.net...
edit on 23-8-2018 by Aallanon because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2018 @ 03:26 PM
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a reply to: Ghostsinthefog

Since I don't even know who the guy is other than his name being mentioned on ATS a lot I can honestly say just like anyone else he should be innocent until proven guilty just as the law states, however that law has been sickly twisted over the years and nowadays everyone is considered guilty until proven innocent- which is completely whack!!!

Our founding fathers are no doubt rolling like bowling balls in their graves, and it's sad as hell!!!



posted on Aug, 23 2018 @ 03:27 PM
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added

ALso, if his money was "clean" and is now legal tender, Why is he struggling to pay lawyer fees...



posted on Aug, 23 2018 @ 05:22 PM
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originally posted by: Aallanon
Huma Abedin is helping his wife launder the money.


Blind Items Revealed #4 December 24, 2017 The wife of this disgraced politician has been raising a lot of eyebrows the past month. The wife of that foreign born A++ list criminal has been a frequent visitor at her home. Huma Abedin/Emma Coronel Aispuro (Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán)


www.crazydaysandnights.net...


I'm confused, so is that a step up from hanging around Hillary or a step down?



posted on Aug, 23 2018 @ 10:34 PM
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a reply to: Ghostsinthefog


But before you blast me, I want you to go back to the start of this post, when I first mentioned him. What was your initial reaction?


When you said “That case is the case of Joaquín Guzmán Loera” I was like who? I looked for a link in your OP and there wasn’t one but you insisted that I would know who he was so I figured instead of googling it I read your entire OP.

Nope still didn’t know who you were talking about. Then I read someone’s response then I was like....

Oooooh El Chappo. you mean the guy that had already been found guilty on several crimes was sentenced and sent to prison but escaped imprisonment....twice? That guy? The guy that was already found guilty? Sent to prison? Escaped prison? Twice? That guy?

I don’t think he even needs a trial, they should just hang his ass straight away. No sense in wasting money feeding and housing that waste of flesh.



posted on Aug, 24 2018 @ 01:18 AM
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a reply to: Ghostsinthefog

#1 - He broke laws in both countries so both countries have a legal claim to try him. As for setting foot in the US it comes down to organized crime and conspiracy. On his orders people inside the US were killed in their ongoing feuds with other gangs. The criminal organization he runs extends into the US. His organization has bribed US border officials / government officials and murdered US citizens on our soil and in Mexico.

#2 - I am not familiar with the legal system in Mexico so no idea on how their trials and jury system works. Here in the US it might be difficult but not impossible. Remember in the US a person has a right to a jury trial but its not required. They can opt instead for a bench trial (Judge acts as the jury). I have found that if you are innocent you choose a bench trial because a judge can see past the bs lawyer tricks. If you are guilty you ask for a jury trial because it is easier to sway people and remember, all it takes is 1 juror to vote know to scuttle the current case, forcing a do over.

#3 - armed guards for the jurors is an absolute must. In cases like this jury tampering is common and its not completely restricted solely to the juror but their families as well. I am not sure of your background but some of these cartels, including Chapos, ranks up there with what ISIS does to its captured people.

#4 - I would imagine he told his lawyer to stop because he would be safer in jail in the US than he would be in Mexico.

#5 - Shell companies, money laundering, conversion schemes using low level businesses (like car dealerships), moving the money out of the country clandestinely, etc. Cartels are as good as the mob or corrupt governments in hiding their finances.

#6 - Right now only the other cartels want him dead. You start ratting out top government officials they will find your body chopped into small pieces while the coroner rules the death a suicide.



- Anger
- Hatered
- Evil
- Guilty
- Scumbag


The head of a drug cartel who has made billions of dollars while partaking in murder to advance their own goals. My opinion is biased though because of my background.
edit on 24-8-2018 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2018 @ 02:39 AM
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a reply to: Ghostsinthefog

how can anyone reasonably argue with the principle of law that says "he who makes an accusation should have to prove it?

Only big brother govt would want to change around to " I say your guilty so therefore you are until you prove otherwise." I.e. accusation = proof guilt.



posted on Aug, 24 2018 @ 03:00 AM
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a reply to: Ghostsinthefog

Apart from everything else, El C has recorded interviews where he clearly stated that he's one of the greatest importers of drugs. Everyone knows he's guilty. The beauty of the adversarial system is that the prosecution will require good evidence (not hearsay) and he'll have the best defence team his billions can buy.



From the second the case starts, it will be him trying to prove his innocence in a world that has already assassinated his character.


'Assassinated his character?' These are strong words. It's as if the world's been turned upside down in the last three years. If El Chapo isn't a powerful billionaire gangster, what exactly is he? Is he a shopkeeper with an unfair reputation? A struggling businessman?

Something changed. The more the evidence, the less likely people are to see someone as guilty. In contrast, I've seen entire networks, groups and ideologies metaphorically tried and executed on nothing more than interpretive hearsay. It's bizarre and I hope I live long enough to see the historical analyses on how it came about. Flat Earth is a small symptom of something much greater.



posted on Aug, 24 2018 @ 04:37 AM
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El Chapo was the annointed one in the the mexican drug cartel circuit.

he was chosen as "our kind of a son of a bitch" and given protection, supplies and what not and in retutn his group snitched on the others cartels.

so of course he filled the "vacanies" and took over their territory and stuff.

Our gov created this monster, all so those that run in certain circles will line their pockets.

you cant lock him up without snatching the true villians that spawn him and will spawn others.

but football players are kneeling during the antheum so thats what im focused on.



posted on Aug, 24 2018 @ 05:07 PM
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hey everyone, I apprciate all the thoughts and feedback.

With all this being said, I think my biggest and most evident problem with this trial is "fair trial" Forgot movies, books etc they have made of him, 1 sole problem, that can't be ignored is the armed guards.

The jury on the first day is surrounded by armed guards, protected 24/7 by armed guards. This instantly, puts the fear of god into them. "Why do we need armed guards, hes that dangerous, he has to be guilty" Bringing a jury in with armed guards is the absolute opposite of a fair trial. He could have the 20 greatest defense lawyers on his bench and even they wouldn't be able get the jury to see past the guards.

Ok here is my opinion. in point form.

- Yes I think he is guilty, but not to the degree they say he is. I think there are more top officials who need to be tried with him.

- I believe it is impossible for him to receive a fair trial which goes against everything the USA legal system stands for.

- If he is aware of top ranking people, maybe the government could use him as an asset to remove informants inside the CIA and FBI.

- I think it is impossible for him to be found innocent.

- If he is found guilty, he should return back to mexico to serve his time so the USA doesn't have to "pay" for him

- I believe there is still more of this story to come out.

- This is like the OJ case, but this time, there is not anything the lawyers can say or do.

- Still question all this money seeing he has a court appointed lawyer rather than a dream team..... Iraq anyone? Anyone found WMD yet?

- I think he is smarter than they give him credit for

- After reading Xcat's comment I think his lawyers will go for a bench trial
edit on 24-8-2018 by Ghostsinthefog because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-8-2018 by Ghostsinthefog because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-8-2018 by Ghostsinthefog because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2018 @ 06:51 AM
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So, what is this nasty little man being accused of? These cartels are responsible for so much misery, brutality and violence that no effort should be spared to drag them to court.

Ah, yes. He's on trial for running a crime cartel, or more specifically for conspiracy to import and distribute coc aine, run organised crime, homicide, money laundering and a whole book load of other things.

Hell get a fair trial in the US and won't be able to bribe himself to freedom, as he's done in the past.

Hopefully his reach won't lead to the assassination of judges, as has happened in the past also, and is the reason why the jury and other court officials are under protection.



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