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Killing uncomfortable history

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posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 08:22 AM
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What bothers me about all this is that most of the population doesn't worry about it, but you have 5% making a public big stink, and it is allowed. Super minority mob rule is stupid.




posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 08:29 AM
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a reply to: network dude

I think the proper thing to do to make this group of hurt individuals feel better is the erect statues depicting them removing the statues that offend them.

Bad statues replaced with good statues.

If that doesn't fix it then they don't actually know what their issue is.




posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 08:31 AM
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originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Greven

originally posted by: network dude
Recently, my state has become a hotbed of "statue hate". Those who aren't mentally capable of existing in the same space as historical monuments erected to portray a certain time in history, decided to take the future of the state into their own tiny little hands. They were hailed as heroes to their peers. Disgusting, weak minded, and intellectually lazy by others. But when and where does it stop?

Zebulon Baird Vance
en.wikipedia.org...
Vance fought on the side of the South. He might have been considered a “racist” by todays standards.
There are statues of him, towns named after him, and informational plaques all over North Carolina to explain his history. Should we change all that? Should we change :
The town of Zebulon, in Wake County
The town of Vanceboro, in Craven County
Vance County, NC
Zebulon B. Vance High School in Charlotte
Zeb Vance Elementary School in Kittrell
Vance Masonic Lodge A.F.&A.M. #293 in Weaverville
Vance Gap Road in Asheville

This is just a part of the rich history of my state. We have civil war battlefields a few miles away. Many of the local citizens have grouped together to maintain this site and keep it’s purpose alive so that any and all who wish to visit the site, can learn about it’s history. But it’s history is rooted in racism, it was the civil war. Should it be removed, so that it’s appearance won’t hurt feelings of the fragile?

Have we regressed this far that any history that the weak don’t like, should be removed from view?
Sadly, it appears so. Rather than learn from history, the SJW’s and other weak minded and weak spirited people chose to remove it, so they won’t see it anymore. Perhaps in those tiny minds, by removing it, they think it removes the fact that history actually happened. Perhaps they remove it so they can repress those same racist feelings they have, and know are wrong. Perhaps they are just idiots who are easily led and latched onto the movement started by just a few. Regardless, the end result is bad. History will remain, but it’s visual reminders will be erased, Then, only those who seek out that knowledge will have it. And the rest are doomed to repeat it.
(IMHO)

Can we put up statues of the winners of the Civil War all over the South yet, or is that just forever off-limits in favor of clinging to traitors?


Yes, you can do just that. But, before you put all that new artwork up, you have to explain why the current artwork is hurting fragile folks. This artwork has existed for quite some time, and all of the sudden, it's leaping from it's stand and physically hurting the very feelings of the very weak.

I can't imagine that new artwork would trigger the weak any less. Or would you like to shift your focus over to town names and county names? Those will need to be changed, as to not offend the easily offended. Feelings matter you know. Feelings.

ETA: but I am waiting for you to claim that you personally don't care about the statues, you are just fighting for the social justice of the offended, like a warrior or something. LOL!

You contradicted yourself:
"Yes, but before..."

So what you meant was, the answer is no.

Feelings are not what I'm concerned about.

Traitors should not be celebrated.



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 08:32 AM
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a reply to: network dude

The statues are looking at them. Watching them. And thinking about slavery.



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 08:39 AM
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This discomfort felt over the past could be the catalyst for some very dark futures if those histories are not remembered and respected.
We can say until we're blue in the face that we, as a new evolved society, are better than that, but we're probably not.
There is a reason humans keep track of history and we should take that collective behavior seriously.



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 09:48 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Boadicea

No, I get it. People these days are fundamentally intolerant of everything they don't like. That's IT.


Sure, some folks are. Others don't know -- and if no one tells them, they never will!!! Especially if the people who have that information are too busy telling them who they really to tell them history. Do you like people telling you who you are? I don't. I walk away. Once someone presumes to know my heart and mind better than I do myself, they've lost all credibility. If they're presuming that much about me, and refusing to let me define myself, the I have no reason to trust anything they say.


People have decided that those statues are represetative of slavery and honor it, so that's all they'll accept the purpose of them is. They won't tolerate any other possible view. That's the only possible thing those statues could ever be for them. They're locked into that worldview and because of that, they cannot tolerate it. They won't, so they got angry and knocked those statues down and refused to even listen to anyone else.


And sometimes they're right!!! Consider the "Silent Sam" monument that was toppled:

What would Silent Sam say, if he could speak? Probably something similar to the vitriol spewed by Confederate veteran Julian Carr, the Durham businessman for whom Carrboro is named, who spoke at Silent Sam’s dedication in 1913, smugly recalling his public whipping of a young black woman accused of insubordination toward her white superiors. Fact is, Silent Sam has never been silent. His very presence embodies the stubborn refusal of Confederate hard-liners to admit the deliberate evil of their miscalculated slavery defense. Silent Sam shouts to every passerby, “I will not confess my complicity in the sinfulness of slavery. I do not admit guilt. I will never ask forgiveness.”

So yes, Silent Sam was all about racism and hate in all its ugliness. On the other hand, there are also monuments honoring the women (nurses) who risked their lives to tend to the wounded on the battlefield -- both blue and gray -- and those monuments have nothing to do with racism or slavery. Most monuments/statues fall somewhere in between. Although it should also be noted that most monuments/statues represent what each individual wants it to represent.

Maybe a good starting point would be for everyone -- on both sides -- to agree to consider each monument/statue on its own merits. Perhaps it could also be agreed that some just need to go. Perhaps from there it could be agreed that some monuments should remain, but supplemented with one (or more) that tracks the progression of race relations and legislation. And perhaps others could be re-dedicated and given a new plaque to honor what's good, and leave behind what serves no good.


And that's the only reason I can think of why anyone would get so upset over the meer existence of a statue that they cannot wait for the legal process to decide if it should stay or go, but instead have to show up in the dark of night or as an unruly howling mob complete with torches and pitchforks to lynch the piece of bronze.


And racism is the "only reason" they can think of why anyone would get so upset over the removal of a statue that celebrates and commemorates such hate and abuse of people. So where has that gotten us? Both sides telling the other side who/what they really are and what they really think and so on and so forth ad nauseum.

We can't control other people. We can only control ourselves. And it's just silly to cry about "erasing history" and then not tell that history! I would also suggest that there is no better time in history than now to do so. That the feds have so discredited and dishonored themselves that more folks than ever, from all walks of life, all shapes and colors and sizes, are open to hearing new truths. Especially Black people who have been used and abused by political critters for our entire history.

Neither "side" is totally right nor totally wrong. There is middle ground, and it's going to be found by talking and discussing and debating and compromising.


(post by network dude removed for a manners violation)

posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 04:21 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Boadicea

And sometimes they're right!!! Consider the "Silent Sam" monument that was toppled:

What would Silent Sam say, if he could speak? Probably something similar to the vitriol spewed by Confederate veteran Julian Carr, the Durham businessman for whom Carrboro is named, who spoke at Silent Sam’s dedication in 1913, smugly recalling his public whipping of a young black woman accused of insubordination toward her white superiors. Fact is, Silent Sam has never been silent. His very presence embodies the stubborn refusal of Confederate hard-liners to admit the deliberate evil of their miscalculated slavery defense. Silent Sam shouts to every passerby, “I will not confess my complicity in the sinfulness of slavery. I do not admit guilt. I will never ask forgiveness.”

So yes, Silent Sam was all about racism and hate in all its ugliness. On the other hand, there are also monuments honoring the women (nurses) who risked their lives to tend to the wounded on the battlefield -- both blue and gray -- and those monuments have nothing to do with racism or slavery. Most monuments/statues fall somewhere in between. Although it should also be noted that most monuments/statues represent what each individual wants it to represent.
....
And racism is the "only reason" they can think of why anyone would get so upset over the removal of a statue that celebrates and commemorates such hate and abuse of people. So where has that gotten us? Both sides telling the other side who/what they really are and what they really think and so on and so forth ad nauseum.


I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt when you said you were trying to be objective and not take sides. Now I can see you are hopelessly insane.

Where did you get that cloud quote? Silent Sam was not a statue of "public whipping of a young black woman accused of insubordination toward her white superiors." There was no plaque that said “I will not confess my complicity in the sinfulness of slavery. I do not admit guilt. I will never ask forgiveness.”

I guess it is real in your mind.
edit on 22-8-2018 by toms54 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 05:02 PM
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a reply to: toms54

My apologies for forgetting the source link for my quote: Not-so-Silent Sam. But --


I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt when you said you were trying to be objective and not take sides. Now I can see you are hopelessly insane.


Really? Let's see... first, I never said I was trying to be objective, nor did I say that I was not taking sides. What I said was that I had not expressed a position. But for the record, I always take the same side: the "we the people first" side.


Where did you get that cloud quote?


Linked above -- with my apologies.


Silent Sam was not a statue of "public whipping of a young black woman accused of insubordination toward her white superiors." There was no plaque that said “I will not confess my complicity in the sinfulness of slavery. I do not admit guilt. I will never ask forgiveness.”


Nor did I say such. As stated in the quote, that story was (very loudly and proudly) related at the dedication of Silent Sam. That Confederate veteran and "honored" speaker made it very clear what he fought for, and what that statue represented: racism, hate and abuse.


I guess it is real in your mind.


Excuse me? What, exactly, is "real" in my mind?

As for your oh-so-dismissive condescension, save it for someone who cares. It's wasted on me. I've already demonstrated far more knowledge and understanding of the overall circumstances and issues underlying the Civil War than you have. And what little I have shared isn't even close to all I know, but it's obviously more than you knew!

So... um... yeah

edit on 22-8-2018 by Boadicea because: formatting



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 05:11 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea


If we truly want God to heal our land, a good place to start would be the orderly and peaceful removal of Silent Sam from our beloved campus where, as an undergraduate, I wandered beneath his shadow, unmindful of the suffering endured by all those denied freedom’s dignity during the cruel regime this statue venerates.


or you could have the alternative where an angry mob just rips apart any monument they don't like. End result is the same and feelings were made to be happy, plus nobody will be punished. So the group that did this just signaled to any other group that the way to get what you want is to just flucking take it. Perhaps Mike Brown had the right idea and snatching a box of blunts while pushing around the little Arab man is the right way to do business.

It's the new American way!



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 05:34 PM
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a reply to: network dude


or you could have the alternative where an angry mob just rips apart any monument they don't like. End result is the same and feelings were made to be happy, plus nobody will be punished. So the group that did this just signaled to any other group that the way to get what you want is to just flucking take it. Perhaps Mike Brown had the right idea and snatching a box of blunts while pushing around the little Arab man is the right way to do business.

It's the new American way!


Well, yeah -- at least it's pretty much the new Antifa American way, isn't it? And it's very much the way of Obama's "Organizing For Action" PAC. And the groups he/they affiliate themselves with.

But there always have been such rabble rousers and vandals and thugs to deal with and there probably always will be. It's just the nature of the beast.

It doesn't have to be the only way though. Not as long as other folks keep finding better ways to resolve their differences. But deny a peaceful resolution, and a violent one is inevitable (to paraphrase).



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 05:41 PM
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a reply to: network dude

I've been a Republican since I could first vote. I've always been patriotic.

I've also long found those who want to celebrate the Confederacy contemptible.

Traitors do not deserve celebration. Your insults do not deserve quoting, and going forward, no longer a reply.
edit on 17Wed, 22 Aug 2018 17:50:59 -0500America/ChicagovAmerica/Chicago8 by Greven because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea

"new" truths?

I thought there was only "the" truth. Or is it true that history really is written by the victor and what we are seeing is a new version of the Chinese Cultural Revolution.

You might want to study up on how that one ended out.



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 05:54 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea

You are being disingenuous again. In this post you said, " I have not taken ANY POSITION on this matter" and "But no one can get past me. No one can even see that I'm not taking the position of the protesters, I am simply stating their position and asking folks to address their concerns... to explain why the Civil War -- the the Civil War heroes -- is about far more than slavery and ALWAYS WAS."

"I am simply stating their position and asking folks to address their concerns"

After citing that atrocious quote, you stated, "So yes, Silent Sam was all about racism and hate in all its ugliness." which indicated you were using the quote to be an example of the true reality that statue represented: racism, hate and abuse.

It was a statue of a lone confederate soldier. That's all. Just because someone once said these tings about it doesn't mean that is what the statue symbolizes to people who look at it today. No one looks at Silent Sam and sees a statue of "public whipping of a young black woman accused of insubordination toward her white superiors. They see a lone confederate soldier. No one except you of course.

That is what seems to be real in your mind. Unless you are being dishonest again. You are not trying to advocate for someone oppressed and heal racial wounds. You are attempting to agitate for racial hatred by stirring up people and using them as a weapon for your political purposes -- NOT for any humane or compassionate reason.



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 05:54 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Boadicea

"new" truths?


Um... context??? I was speaking directly to ignorance... i.e., lack of facts, and therefore truths. And that within the greater context that too many people think the Civil War was ONLY about slavery, but that there was much more history aka truth to be told. So, yes, new truths to be told.


I thought there was only "the" truth.


How about "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"?


Or is it true that history really is written by the victor...


Well, yeah. I thought that was a given.


...and what we are seeing is a new version of the Chinese Cultural Revolution.


I guess we'll find out together.


You might want to study up on how that one ended out.


Indeed.



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 06:16 PM
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Yep, racists hanging onto their precious racist monuments by the fingernails. They are behaving like two year olds.



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 06:25 PM
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originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: Boadicea

You are being disingenuous again.


Better than deliberately and willfully obtuse... or worse.

I did not take a position until I stated that I was on the same side that I am always on: We The People First. You have assumed what "side" I'm on, based on your own positions. I defy you to show my anywhere else that I have taken a side. Not what you think means I took a side. Show me where I stated a side.


After citing that atrocious quote, you stated, "So yes, Silent Sam was all about racism and hate in all its ugliness." which indicated you were using the quote to be an example of the true reality that statue represented: racism, hate and abuse.


Wow. Project much? I didn't make that statue about racism, hate and abuse. I wasn't even born when that statue was struck or dedicated -- much less say those words. But that is the documented history of the statue. It is what it is. And I had nothing to do with it.


It was a statue of a lone confederate soldier. That's all. Just because someone once said these tings about it...


AT THE DEDICATION CEREMONY!!!


... doesn't mean that is what the statue symbolizes to people who look at it today. No one looks at Silent Sam and sees a statue of "public whipping of a young black woman accused of insubordination toward her white superiors. They see a lone confederate soldier. No one except you of course.


Just me, huh? Not the Washington Post? Or Time? Or the Chicago Tribune? Or Forbes ? Or Market Watch? Or the National Review?

Again? Just me, huh??? Your willful and deliberate ignorance is showing... and it's not a pretty look.


That is what seems to be real in your mind.


Not seems to be real... it is what it is.


Unless you are being dishonest again.


Dishonest about what exactly? Come on. Your insults are pretty darn clear. How about you put that vocabulary to work in a practical way? Spit it out.


You are not trying to advocate for someone oppressed and heal racial wounds. You are attempting to agitate for racial hatred by stirring up people and using them as a weapon for your political purposes -- NOT for any humane or compassionate reason.


Presume much? Now you're going to tell me who and what I really am? Because you know my heart and mind better than me? And in your little mind if I point out the very racist history of a statue, that makes me an agitator for racial hatred by stirring people up?

Um... in case you didn't notice... people were agitated and stirred up loooooong before I said a thing!
edit on 22-8-2018 by Boadicea because: formatting

edit on 22-8-2018 by Boadicea because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 06:28 PM
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a reply to: soundguy

Get rid of all that stuff. I mean all the monuments, statues, memorials, and especially those UGLY modern abstract pieces of trash that seem to litter up our streets like colossal piles of garbage. Don't tear down one kind and leave others. That is not fair at all. Who decides?

Rip it all down. Then we wont have to listen to this sickening whining year after year.



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 06:36 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea

I haven't assumed much. Nearly everything there was a quote from one of your posts in this thread. I don't have much more to say. I've already made my case pretty darn clear.



posted on Aug, 22 2018 @ 07:22 PM
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originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: Boadicea

I haven't assumed much. Nearly everything there was a quote from one of your posts in this thread.


Really? You have a quote from me saying that I'm... what was that now? Hmm... let me remember... that's right! That I am "not trying to advocate for someone oppressed and heal racial wounds. I am attempting to agitate for racial hatred by stirring up people and using them as a weapon for my political purposes -- NOT for any humane or compassionate reason." You've got that quote from me? From ME???


I don't have much more to say. I've already made my case pretty darn clear.


Only the insults. You're really good at making those clear. Is that where you have the most experience???

Otherwise, no. If you want to accuse me of being disingenuous, insane, racial agitator and so on, then back it up. Where did I take a side? And what side did I take? Give me the quote and the link to the comment. Come on. Be specific.

Because the truth is I have both agreed and disagreed with both sides, and I have suggested several alternative approaches that neither side has suggested, nor would they because both sides are all or nothing.

So what I'm getting from this little tirade yours is that because I obviously didn't take YOUR SIDE, by default I took "a side," and that means I took the "other" side.



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