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Killing uncomfortable history

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posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:22 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

I place those who would tear down statues in the exact same light as Holocaust deniers. If you think about the goal of each, you can see just how similar the two are.




posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:23 AM
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originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: intrepid

You underestimate the iconoclasts and overestimate the historical value of those statues.


If that were the case then their removal would be moot. If they aren't they must have historical value.


They are symbols, pulling them down is a rather symbolic act. The reformation didn't erase history with dismantling icons of catholicism, either.

We don't remember the Krauts holocaust with putting up heroic statues from Göring and Himmler, or should we? The historical angle in this debate is what I'd call a moot point, and it's a distraction from the real conspiracy right in front of our eyes: the ongoing oppression, racism and fascist tendencies.
edit on 21-8-2018 by PublicOpinion because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:26 AM
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a reply to: intrepid


They fought against the union. Thus they have called it the War of Northern Aggression. Slavery was a byproduct.


Well, no, not really. Slavery was not a "byproduct." It was part and parcel of the greater issue of states' rights. But your point is well taken that slavery was not "thee" main issue.


And don't be thinking that the north was the beacon for anti-slavery. If they could have competed economically with the south's workforce slavery would have lasted a lot longer. Self interest was what it was all about.


I'm not. The northern mills with their company stores and company owned housing had their own little corporate slavery going on... really not much different than today's corporate servitude.


I am.
(Re: "Are you making the argument that these men are being celebrated and commemorated for something other than their wartime efforts? Therefore rendering the protesters' objections moot?")

Okay. Then make that case. What exactly are they being commemorated for? What good did they do? How did they serve the greater good -- even though not perfect?

I would love to see more reasoned and thoughtful arguments for states' rights, because it has become a proverbial "dog whistle" for racism.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:29 AM
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originally posted by: PublicOpinion
We don't remember the Krauts holocaust with putting up heroic statues from Göring and Himmler, or should we? The historical angle in this debate is what I'd call a moot point, and it's a distraction from the real conspiracy right in front of our eyes: the ongoing oppression, racism and fascist tendencies.


Well a quarter of a million people visit Aushwitz a year:

www.dailymail.co.uk... isitors.html

And that puppy is a monument to the worst action in modern western history.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:39 AM
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originally posted by: intrepid

Well a quarter of a million people visit Aushwitz a year:

And that puppy is a monument to the worst action in modern western history.



And the denyiers still go on denying .........



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:39 AM
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a reply to: intrepid

But it's hardly a celebration of the event. It's a solemn reminder to never let such a thing happen again. How is a heroic statue of "Silent Sam" anything other than a celebration and commemoration of a time when half the country committed treason over the issue of whether owning people was a good idea?



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:47 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
Okay. Then make that case. What exactly are they being commemorated for? What good did they do? How did they serve the greater good -- even though not perfect?


For fighting the federal government. Do you think all or most people that fought for the south owned slaves? Or agreed with slavery? They were fighting what was perceived as oppression.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:48 AM
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originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: intrepid

But it's hardly a celebration of the event. It's a solemn reminder to never let such a thing happen again. How is a heroic statue of "Silent Sam" anything other than a celebration and commemoration of a time when half the country committed treason over the issue of whether owning people was a good idea?


how is it not a reminder of a dark time in our history and a visual aid to remember to never go down that awful road again?

And most importantly, why does this small group of assholes get to decide?



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:49 AM
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a reply to: intrepid

And our boys in the Middle East thought they were fighting terrorism. It doesn't change the fact that they were actually fighting for the corporate interests of Big Business.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:51 AM
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originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Boadicea

I place those who would tear down statues in the exact same light as Holocaust deniers. If you think about the goal of each, you can see just how similar the two are.


It wasn't an accident that Eisenhower ordered the concentration camps and all their horrors be photographed and documented... He knew there would be those who would try to deny just how heinous and horrific it was.

Those who try to deny history or erase history by necessity also try to rewrite history.... and the future. And that's the problem.

One thing that's seldom discussed within this context is Sherman's March of Terror through the south, and the very real and legitimate resentment on the part of the South, which led in great part to these statues and monuments. The victors write the history. Part of this national dialogue should include (what I consider) the wartime crimes of the North against the people of the South, which is what actually created these southern heroes.

The vast majority of protestors see only virtue on the part of the North and vice on the part of the South.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:52 AM
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a reply to: Xcalibur254

they were and are, following the orders of the officers appointed over them, as they promised to do when they took the oath. It's not up to them to decide who is right and who is wrong, they are supposed to do their job. And they do it well. If the war is unjust, the anger should never fall on them, but on those who sent them. Forever and always.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:53 AM
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a reply to: network dude

If it's supposed to be a painful reminder why are there never any statues of slaves being sold or beaten? It's always some white guy in a heroic pose. That's not condemning the actions of these people. That's celebrating them. If you think otherwise, why is it always the Confederate flag waving crowd that comes out to defend these statues.

Do you really not see the difference between Germany giving tours of Auschwitz and if they had a heroic statue of Hitler?



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:53 AM
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originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: intrepid

And our boys in the Middle East thought they were fighting terrorism. It doesn't change the fact that they were actually fighting for the corporate interests of Big Business.


Same issue. Different era.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:57 AM
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originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: network dude

If it's supposed to be a painful reminder why are there never any statues of slaves being sold or beaten? It's always some white guy in a heroic pose. That's not condemning the actions of these people. That's celebrating them. If you think otherwise, why is it always the Confederate flag waving crowd that comes out to defend these statues.


That's because you can't get past the fact that it wasn't about slavery. Like I said, a byproduct. It's about the south standing up to the Federal government.


Do you really not see the difference between Germany giving tours of Auschwitz ...


I didn't know that Germany was still in control of Poland.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 10:01 AM
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a reply to: intrepid


For fighting the federal government.


Okay. Why is that good? What were the feds doing that was so awful it had to be fought? How were the feds hurting the people and how did the hero help the people?


Do you think all or most people that fought for the south owned slaves? Or agreed with slavery?


Doesn't matter what I think -- and doesn't matter how many folks owned slaves. It was wrong because it's wrong to "own" another person and force your will onto another person. It's not "okay" if only a few people owned slaves. One slaveowner is too many.


They were fighting what was perceived as oppression.


So make that case. How were they being oppressed by the feds? How were they being treated unfairly in comparison to other states and/or industries? How were the people being wrongly hurt by the feds actions?

Making that case loud and clear would directly and profoundly address the main issue of the protesters: Celebrating those who fought the Union to protect and defend slavery. It may not convince anyone, but at least it would be a start to discussing and debating the underlying causes and conditions and issues.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 10:03 AM
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a reply to: intrepid

Exactly my point. Just because the average Confederate soldier didn't own slaves doesn't change the fact that it was war about slavery. So why should we erect statues that celebrate the side that betrayed the US because they were in favor of owning people?



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 10:08 AM
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The correct response isn’t to tear down history, but to encourage others to write their own history. In my own hometown, in Canada, they just tore down a statue of John A McDonald, who is like our founding father. Wait until they find out the city is named after the queen of England. Soon we’ll be named Transgenderbathroomville. This sort of behavior doesn’t end.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 10:11 AM
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Cripes. Why do you need a Canuck to educate you on your own history? I don't know how many ways I can spell it out. Finger puppets next I suppose.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 10:12 AM
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originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: network dude

If it's supposed to be a painful reminder why are there never any statues of slaves being sold or beaten? It's always some white guy in a heroic pose. That's not condemning the actions of these people. That's celebrating them. If you think otherwise, why is it always the Confederate flag waving crowd that comes out to defend these statues.

Do you really not see the difference between Germany giving tours of Auschwitz and if they had a heroic statue of Hitler?


The south lost the war. Many were killed, and it was a bad time for almost everyone here. Do hero's only exist on the winning side?



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 10:18 AM
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a reply to: network dude

What heroic things did Jefferson Davis achieve? Why is he deserving of numerous statues in his honor?




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