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Killing uncomfortable history

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posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:24 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: network dude

There is another thread up about ideological robots... those who cannot/do not/will not understand their opponents' arguments. This thread is a perfect example.

The protesters are not trying to pretend that the Civil War never happened. They are not trying to pretend that slavery never happened. They are not trying to erase history. It is what it is and cannot be changed by anyone in any way... ever.

The protesters are protesting the perceived celebration and honoring of those who championed slavery and fought against the Union.

So you are arguing a strawman argument of your own creation. And insulting an entire group of people based on the same.

How about addressing their true objections -- the celebration and commemoration of those who defended, protected and fought for slavery.


When the men put on the grey uniform, and marched forward to fight against "the enemy", they didn't do it to protect slavery, they were protecting their home land. I don't know if you are aware, but the vast majority of southerners didn't own slaves, only the rich folks did, and then, only some.





posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:25 AM
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This has gotten out of hand and really whom will go down in history as the worst lot?

Personally, we passed 40 million babies slaughtered in the womb, think our era of people will be noted as the most barbaric in history. The era of slavery or assisted immigration to America from Africa will be long forgotten when the gravity of what we have done today sets in. The institution of abortion began in order to euthanize blacks so which is worse slavery or euthanasia?



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:25 AM
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a reply to: intrepid

You underestimate the iconoclasts and overestimate the historical value of those statues. It's about symbols of oppression in plain sight, none of this has any bearing on history.

In the end, it's a discussion regarding the systematic racism and fascism in the States. It's like taking a knee in the NFL, actually.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:26 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea


The protesters are not trying to pretend that the Civil War never happened. They are not trying to pretend that slavery never happened. They are not trying to erase history. It is what it is and cannot be changed by anyone in any way... ever.
The protesters are protesting the perceived celebration and honoring of those who championed slavery and fought against the Union.


Slavery was not uncommon and not all slave owners were cruel. Many were

philanthropists and did good in many other ways so maybe they were being

championed for the good they did rather than the slaves they owned.

History cannot be looked at in today's more enlightened society, Its a vastly

different world we live in today, you could say that "history has taught us!"




How about addressing their true objections -- the celebration and commemoration of those who defended, protected and fought for slavery.


^^^^^ An error? should it not read fought 'against' slavery?



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:27 AM
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originally posted by: intrepid
It think it's stupid and shortsighted.


shortsighted. I think if you were to pick one word to describe this, that would be it.

Thanks.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:27 AM
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This has gotten out of hand and really whom will go down in history as the worst lot?


We know who the frontrunners are.

Hijacked science.

Hijacked Law enforcement agencies.

Hijacked Federal Law enforcement agencies.

Hijacked free speech.

And now History.

Combine and what do you get ?

The antithesis of a LIBERAL DEMOCRACY



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:32 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: network dude

There is another thread up about ideological robots... those who cannot/do not/will not understand their opponents' arguments. This thread is a perfect example.

The protesters are not trying to pretend that the Civil War never happened. They are not trying to pretend that slavery never happened. They are not trying to erase history. It is what it is and cannot be changed by anyone in any way... ever.

The protesters are protesting the perceived celebration and honoring of those who championed slavery and fought against the Union.

So you are arguing a strawman argument of your own creation. And insulting an entire group of people based on the same.

How about addressing their true objections -- the celebration and commemoration of those who defended, protected and fought for slavery.


Today it's the statues. Tomorrow, is it the towns and counties I mentioned?
www.upi.com...

At what point does this become idiotic to you? I have to assume you have limits.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:36 AM
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a reply to: network dude


When the men put on the grey uniform, and marched forward to fight against "the enemy", they didn't do it to protect slavery, they were protecting their home land.


I am well aware that this was as much a states' rights issues as a slavery issue... but when the issue of slavery is part and parcel of the states' rights being protected, the in theory and in practice, the war was about slavery, and those protecting and defending the practice of slavery. It is accurate to say that the war was not ONLY about slavery; but it is not accurate to say that the war was not about slavery at all.


I don't know if you are aware, but the vast majority of southerners didn't own slaves, only the rich folks did, and then, only some.


Again, yes, I am well aware. I am equally aware that it wasn't only White folks who owned slaves either. Doesn't matter. The point is moot. And it doesn't address the issues of the protesters.

Are you saying that these statues, etc., do not celebrate and commemorate these folks? Are you saying that they do, but that's a good thing?



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:37 AM
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originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: intrepid

You underestimate the iconoclasts and overestimate the historical value of those statues.


If that were the case then their removal would be moot. If they aren't they must have historical value.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:38 AM
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The progressive movement-marching backwards towards a feudal system.Much to the glee of Soros,Buffet,Rockefeller,etc.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:45 AM
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originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: network dude

Book burning has become popular with the left.



LOL, I think when the two or three that were smart enough to realize that books are all digital now, and can't really be "burned", started the statue thing, so they could still feel like the tough guys and girls who identify as guys they portray on the internet.


They're going to burn the internet next



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:46 AM
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The problem is who get to decide in retrospect what in the past was too offensive?

Sure those that are outraged now and want civil war statues brought down, or founding fathers ones, because of there stance on slavery feel this is an open and shut case.

But what happens when the future judges these very people or their heroes?

It is not a stretch to see calls to scrub Martin Luther King Jr. from public statues or history books; after all he was a terrible womanizer that cheated on his wife.

How about many of the feminist; many of them do not feel trans men to women are actually women, so I guess they should be scrubbed from history.

Journals now show Einstein said bad things about asians, guess its time for him to go. And Ghandi, he had bad things to say about afircans, see ya!

Mother theresa believed in a homophobic God, guess she needs to go.

And I saw a video of Obama flexing his crotch at female reporters; guess we need to remove him from the history books.

And maybe, just maybe in the future, robots will be given human rights. "Can you believe that back in the early 21st century there were people that were woke enough to remove offensive statues from the past, and yet they used robotics as slaves! What monsters, lets remove them from history"

The censors are happy to censor when they have the power; but they will scream the loudest when that power is turned on them.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:49 AM
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a reply to: eletheia


Slavery was not uncommon and not all slave owners were cruel. Many were

philanthropists and did good in many other ways so maybe they were being

championed for the good they did rather than the slaves they owned.


Thank you, but I do not need a lesson on slavery. I am well aware of the surrounding issues. And it does not address the issues of the protestors: Statues, etc., that celebrate and commemorate those who fought against the Union to protect and defend slavery. This is the protestors objection. This is what must be addressed.

Are you making the argument that these men are being celebrated and commemorated for something other than their wartime efforts? Therefore rendering the protesters' objections moot?


^^^^^ An error? should it not read fought 'against' slavery?


No error; but let me be more specific: How about addressing the true objections of the protesters: the celebration and commemoration of those who defended, protected and fought for slavery.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:50 AM
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This topic has always made me think about the radical Christians who claim that Dinos never were on this planet and that the earth is only "X" thousands of years old. If they had the money, they would buy up every speck of evidence of anything that would deny them their theory, but luckily, they can't.

YEARS ago, the family and I went to Stone Mountain in Georgia. We watched the laser show that portrays the fighting of the civil war, and the loss by the South. My daughter started asking questions about what happened. I was astounded to hear what she was being taught about the civil war in school.

Her teachers, southern born and raised, had their particular spin on what "really happened", and I started to educate her on the facts.

History, teaches us what not to do again, AND teaches us how to proceed as good humans should.

Toppling statues is simple destruction of property. Don't like it, don't visit it. LEAVE THE DAMN THINGS UP SO THAT PEOPLE ASK WHY THEY ARE THERE.

LEARN FROM THEM.

Fred..



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 08:57 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
And it does not address the issues of the protestors: Statues, etc., that celebrate and commemorate those who fought against the Union to protect and defend slavery.


They fought against the union. Thus they have called it the War of Northern Aggression. Slavery was a byproduct. And don't be thinking that the north was the beacon for anti-slavery. If they could have competed economically with the south's workforce slavery would have lasted a lot longer. Self interest was what it was all about.


Are you making the argument that these men are being celebrated and commemorated for something other than their wartime efforts? Therefore rendering the protesters' objections moot?


I am.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:08 AM
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a reply to: network dude

It has nothing to do with protecting the weak.

Its about the fact that New America recognizes no white heros, only white criminals. Why wouldnt they topple the statues of white criminals? Whites represent everything thats wrong with the US. A country born in racial hatred, slavery, oppression etc. is damned if it doesnt topple the statues of the white criminals!



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:10 AM
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originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: eletheia

History can definitely be altered. If we permit it. That old saying history is written by the victors is true.

I have read about history of entire regions being revised to favor the rulers. Communist Russia was one example. It's happened to some degree by every country on earth. Some believe that nearly all history before the 1500s is fictitious or at least highly distorted.


It has already been altered and this topic is a good example.

Our civil war was never about slavery at all... it was all about the Northern bankers and the power of the Federal government over the States.

Slavery wasn't abolished in the North till years after the war.

No, it was all about the consolidation of Federal powers and by extension, the power of the bankers.

The South didn't lose the civil war. The 10th Amendment and all Americans lost.

That is why I always call it His Story.

All about the perception of the population.




posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:13 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: network dude


When the men put on the grey uniform, and marched forward to fight against "the enemy", they didn't do it to protect slavery, they were protecting their home land.


I am well aware that this was as much a states' rights issues as a slavery issue... but when the issue of slavery is part and parcel of the states' rights being protected, the in theory and in practice, the war was about slavery, and those protecting and defending the practice of slavery. It is accurate to say that the war was not ONLY about slavery; but it is not accurate to say that the war was not about slavery at all.


I don't know if you are aware, but the vast majority of southerners didn't own slaves, only the rich folks did, and then, only some.


Again, yes, I am well aware. I am equally aware that it wasn't only White folks who owned slaves either. Doesn't matter. The point is moot. And it doesn't address the issues of the protesters.

Are you saying that these statues, etc., do not celebrate and commemorate these folks? Are you saying that they do, but that's a good thing?





these statues, these towns, these counties, these monuments, these historic places, these placards by the road, all of them are here to commemorate something. Be it the lost brothers, the fact that we killed each other over ideals, the fact that our country was so divided that killing each other seemed like the only viable solution. Think about that last one for a moment. When you have eradicated all that offends you, and all that offends your neighbor, who will offend you next and require removal. What monument or town, or person of historical significance will need to be removed next, just to placate the weak, the SJW's the buthurt?


The people who destroyed that statue in Durham, and the one's who destroyed Silent Sam in Chapple HIll, have not erased history, they haven't stamped out slavery, they haven't changed the minds of their oppressors, they destroyed something they didn't like.

Will you support those who are offended by Dr. King's statues, due to his womanizing? Will you support those who destroy the monuments in Washington DC due to the slavery owners being among the celebrated?

This is a bit more than your feelings or the feelings of a few, this is the historical content of our nation, and if you want something removed, you need to go about it the right way. Unless you believe anarchy and mob rules is fair and just. I have hopes that you are just confused and don't really think that way.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:14 AM
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originally posted by: eletheia

*History* by its very name cannot be altered .....IT HAPPENED

It cant be altered by sticking fingers in ones ears and whistling loudly.

Actually, history is often times the narrative of the victor in things such as battles and imperialism. Do you think that the history taught by the Cherokee based on their perspective of British and Americans coming over doing what they did matches up with what is taught in our public schools?


Do you think that the history taught in Spain about the Conquistadores matches what is taught in what remains of native peoples in Central America?

While I agree with your point, the reality is that "facts" exist only because some are repeated and taught and some are allowed to be forgotten, whether on purpose or not. Other facts are relegated to the annals of mythology, or called allegorical stories, simply because those in authority do not recognize them as fact. History can and is altered all of the time, and sometimes is forgotten about altogether.


History should stand as a lesson whether good or bad.

Statues and plaques just serve as a reminder *Lest we forget*

On this, we fully agree. For better or worse, we need to know our history and to know it accurately so that we can progress off of the good and learn not to repeat the bad. If history is forgotten or manipulated, we only have ourselves to blame.



posted on Aug, 21 2018 @ 09:17 AM
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a reply to: network dude


Today it's the statues. Tomorrow, is it the towns and counties I mentioned?
www.upi.com...


Well, no one is calling for the destruction of an entire town or county, such as they would call for the destruction of a statue. Just a name change.


At what point does this become idiotic to you? I have to assume you have limits.


Please remember, I am not one of the protesters... I am not even trying to make their case for them... I'm simply trying to state their case.

But in terms of idiocy? There's more than enough to go around. I don't think this is idiocy though. This is an agenda to divide-and-conquer and demoralize under the guise of the "racism" boogeyman.

But the greatest idiocy is in putting so much stock in symbols and names and labels -- and this is what has to be addressed, and not just in terms of Civil War monuments, etc. But it also must be addressed fairly and according to due process. If protestors take it upon themselves to destroy a public structure, then the appropriate charges should apply: Vandalism, destruction of public property, etc.

But in accordance with due process, the people of a town could decide to remove a monument, or add to it with a monument of a hero from the other side. Perhaps change the plaque describing the statue, noting how things were AND how things changed to where we are now. In terms of name, same process -- or not. A town is what generations of people make it. Not just one person who landed there first.

My focus is on the good that comes from anything "bad" -- both because of and in spite of those bad things. We cannot celebrate and honor our growth, and we cannot celebrate and honor our heroes, unless we recognize and appreciate who and what led us to that growth and improvement.




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