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Is it finally ok to look at demographics of crime stats

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posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:17 PM
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So one of the arguments I hear routinely on the immigration debate is touting statistics that show that illegal immigrants actually commit less crime than US citizens by proportion.

In other words, as US citizen is more likely to commit certain crimes than an illegal.

I have no problem discussing these stats, and feel they should be looked at. I think it is irrelevant to the question of whether or not we should enforce our border and immigration laws, but its a worth while discussion to have.

However, I cant help but notice that usually it is left leaning or anti trump people that bring up these stats.

Strangely enough, there happens to be a large overlap with the same left leaning people that often say that to bring up stats about the differences in certain demographics committing crimes is a disgustingly racist thing to do.

So I am just seeking some clarification here: can we now all agree that bringing up stats on crimes committed by certain demographics, rather it be legal status, race, sex, gender, etc, does not make a person a bigot?

Is it finally ok to realize that facts and statistics arent prejudice?

Or will the people that say using crime stats on racial demographics is bigoted and racist also condemn the people who use stats about illegals committing less crimes are also bigots against US citizens?



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posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:28 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Im going to say that 100% illegal aliens have committed a crime. That stat is undeniable. And that is not racist, or biggoted, its just a fact based on the law.


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posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:31 PM
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a reply to: BlueJacket


Good point. Legally, every illegal alien IS a criminal.



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:33 PM
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originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: Grambler

Im going to say that 100% illegal aliens have committed a crime. That stat is undeniable. And that is not racist, or biggoted, its just a fact based on the law.



Yes but the studies I am discussing will say "arrests records show that an ameircan citizzen is 30% more likely to be arrested for a violent crime than an illegal immigrant (thats just me making up an example, I dont know what the actual studies people cite say are the exact percentages)

Now there are real questions I would have with studies like this, such as how do you know how many illegals there are to find a proportionality?

But I get the crux of the argument; we should spend more time focusing on people who commit more serious crimes.

My point is many of the same people citing studies like this will scream until they are blue in the face that you are a racist if you discuss arrests stats focusing on other demographics, and say those numbers cant be trusted.

Now I personally dont think any facts or stats are bigoted or racist.

But I am just asking those that decry using these arrests stats sometimes, but use them when it favors a demographic they like; can we just get a clear answer n rather or not we can use these stats?



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:41 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Well, I used to trust statics as well, until I saw the Trump stats and how grossly wrong they were.

Eta, should be the presidential election stats, not just Trump


edit on 20-8-2018 by liveandlearn because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:41 PM
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Anyone who has done a few minutes of research knows about the demographics of crime in the United States (and the world).

Either way for whatever reason it is still a politically incorrect topic. Even if it is acknowledged, what can we do? Intern them in camps? Bring back segregation? Profiling by police? Re-education and cultural reform? Selective enforcement of immigration laws?

That battle is lost.

Ending prohibition would have the largest impact on reducing crime. More so then taking drastic measures against certain demographics. Crime is like the never ending nuisance of society that we are destined to suffer. The status quo is the lesser evil.

edit on 20-8-2018 by 1mpl3m3nt because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:48 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Well I for one agree with you and believe we should be able to freely discuss any statistics we want without the fear of being labeled something that is a dog whistle to these roving bands of sjw's.

My feelings are if you are willing to break the law simply to be here you are most likely willing to commit other crimes.

Why would you not?

Oh and the crimes committed are still disproportionate from illegal immigrants than all other groups. As every one of them has committed the crime of entering this country illegally. But of course someone will be along shortly to tell me how wrong me and the op are.



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:49 PM
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originally posted by: 1mpl3m3nt
Anyone who has done a few minutes of research knows about the demographics of crime in the United States (and the world).

Either way for whatever reason it is still a politically incorrect topic. Even if it is acknowledged, what can we do? Intern them in camps? Bring back segregation? Profiling by police? Re-education and cultural reform? Selective enforcement of immigration laws?

That battle is lost.

Ending prohibition would have the largest impact on reducing crime. More so then taking drastic measures against certain demographics.



I would never suggest to punish someone based on their demographics.

No doubt there are racist or bigots that use stats to come to racist conclusions, but that does not make the stats themselves racist.

So for example, when bringing up police shooting unarmed black men at a higher proportion.

I made the argument that police probably have more justified AND unjustified shootings of suspects in areas with higher violent crime rates, because they are more fearful.

So when we look at the staats on crime demographics, we see that black men commit around 50 percent of homicides a year.

And for all sorts of reasons, there are many communities where these crimes ar far more likely to happen. And it seems to match up that these areas also have more police shootings of suspects.

Does this mean that cops never are wrong in the shootings? NO!

Does it mean black men are inferior? NO!

Does it suggest that perhaps there are no reasons other than race that black men tend to commit more violence like this, such as brutal poverty? NO!

Does it mean that I should treat my black neighbor with suspicion? NO!

It just shows these areas have more violence, and therefore it is logical to assume police will have more violence in response.

Yet I have been called racist many times for using these stats. Or I have been told that arrests stats are all biased and untrustworthy.

Yet somehow, some of the same people who say these things dont bat an eye to cite studies showing how American citizens are more likely to be arrested for violent crimes than illegals.

Now I would never say this proves they are bigoted toward american citizens.

So I am just asking for consistency from these people.



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:52 PM
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Right or wrong. Agree with or not. . .

If we do not discuss statistics as they pertain to demographics, we do a dis-service to understanding our country.
By not discussing them it dosn't allow us to examine the record, by highlighting a problem in data collection, or by recognizing there is a trend with a certain demographic.



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:52 PM
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The "demographic" you're looking for is called "poor".

Poor people commit more crime, for mostly obvious reasons.

If a higher percentage of black people are poor as compared to whites, you can expect their crime statistics to be skewed in the same direction.

That doesn't mean blacks are more violent.

It means they mo' po'.



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:53 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

The really interesting part is that the statistics are buried by the Federal government.


Most states and our federal government have kept information and statistics about illegal immigration, crimes committed by illegals and the costs borne by you the U.S. payer out of public view. It is in fact difficult, but not impossible to locate accurate crime statistics involving illegal immigrants. The statistics are buried both to suit a political agenda and to avoid public outcry.


It is starting to come out now, however...


Research conducted by the federal government oversight organization Judicial Watch in 2014 documents that 50 percent of all federal crimes were committed near our border with Mexico.

Of the 61,529 criminal cases filed by federal prosecutors; 40 percent or 24,746 were in court districts along the southern borders of California, Arizona and Texas.

The Western District of Texas had the nation’s most significant crime rate with over 6,300 cases filed; followed by the Southern District of Texas with slightly over 6,000 cases.

The Southern California District with nearly 4,900 cases; New Mexico with nearly 4,000 cases and Arizona with over 3,500 criminal cases ranked 3rd, 4th and 5th.

The U.S. Department of Justice documents that in 2014, 19 percent or over 12,000 criminal cases filed by prosecutors were for violent crimes; and over 22 percent or 13,300 cases were for drug related felonies.

That same year, the U.S. Sentencing Commission found that 75 percent of all criminal defendants who were convicted and sentenced for federal drug offenses were illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants were also involved in 17 percent of all drug trafficking sentences and one third of all federal prison sentences.

The U.S. Department of Justice and the U.S. Sentencing Commission reported that as of 2014, illegal immigrants were convicted and sentenced for over 13 percent of all crimes committed in the U.S.

According to the FBI, 67,642 murders were committed in the U.S. from 2005 through 2008, and 115,717 from 2003 through 2009. The General Accounting Office documents that criminal immigrants committed 25,064 of these murders.

Illegal immigrants clearly commit a level of violent and drug related crimes disproportionate to their population.

In California alone, over 2,400 illegal immigrants out of a total prison population of 130,000 are imprisoned in the state’s prison system for the crime of homicide.


So yes, I think it is time, now that the actual numbers are coming out, that it should be injected into the illegal immigrant conversation. After all, if their first act upon entering the United States is committing a crime, why would they care about our laws?

S&F....
edit on 20-8-2018 by Lumenari because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:56 PM
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originally posted by: NthOther
The "demographic" you're looking for is called "poor".

Poor people commit more crime, for mostly obvious reasons.

If a higher percentage of black people are poor as compared to whites, you can expect their crime statistics to be skewed in the same direction.

That doesn't mean blacks are more violent.

It means they mo' po'.


It is not quite that clean and tidy.

Studies show that homicide rates in many poor appalachian communities is far less than in poor cities.

But I suspect you are largely right.

However, this further buttresses my argument regarding police shootings.

It shouldnt be black lives matter, it should be poor lives matter.

Poor people are more likley to be shot by police, and its not just because police hate poor people, its because there is more violent crime in poor areas.



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 10:59 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Statistics are for liars and liars always use statistics. Does it even matter what race or gender someone is anymore if I can identify as gender neutral Lucky Charms™ breakfast cereal without being called a mental case?

Face it: even if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the lions share of illegal immigrants engage in violent crime you will then have to fight the arguement that they are disproportionately targeted, and white privilege drives down the numbers for white convictions, and then racism and bigotry, and religion is a scam thus so are your values.

The revolution will eat itself soon enough.
edit on 20-8-2018 by drewlander because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 11:12 PM
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originally posted by: liveandlearn
a reply to: Grambler

Well, I used to trust statics as well, until I saw the Trump stats and how grossly wrong they were.

Eta, should be the presidential election stats, not just Trump



That is actually called "probability" in mathematics, and it definitely helped Trump for liberals to think they had a slam dunk.



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 11:14 PM
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a reply to: drewlander

Then you point out that "illegal immigrant" is not a race.

If they start to say "but white this, white that" then point out that they are, by definition, a racist.

It's pretty easy to do in real life (although it does tend to start a bar fight pretty quickly).




posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 11:32 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler

Strangely enough, there happens to be a large overlap with the same left leaning people that often say that to bring up stats about the differences in certain demographics committing crimes is a disgustingly racist thing to do.


Since Math is Sexist, and Science is Racist, are you actually trying to ask an actual question here OP?




posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 11:36 PM
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originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

originally posted by: Grambler

Strangely enough, there happens to be a large overlap with the same left leaning people that often say that to bring up stats about the differences in certain demographics committing crimes is a disgustingly racist thing to do.


Since Math is Sexist, and Science is Racist, are you actually trying to ask an actual question here OP?



Well the post modernists have taught is there is no such thing as truth, and attempts at logic are noting more than a racist power game....

I am going to assume your question is proof that you are a nazi.



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 11:40 PM
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originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: Grambler

Im going to say that 100% illegal aliens have committed a crime. That stat is undeniable. And that is not racist, or biggoted, its just a fact based on the law.



Not really, (still) underage Kids dragged here by their Parents didn't actually commit a crime, but yes are Illegal.



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 11:41 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Since I'm white, and not a "liberal", for me to try and pose such a challenge as OP would certainly prove I have a drawer full of Adolf Hitler socks and underwear, and a Hitler lunchbox. I had a kite, but it got busted up by a pack of wild "S.H.A.R.P.'s" when they saw it.
edit on 21-8-2018 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2018 @ 11:45 PM
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a reply to: Lumenari

And then you point out they dont understand the most basic parts of language because words that end in "ist" generally imply superiority and your values are not the basis for racial divide so the arguement makes no sense. Despite your best effort to reason with them you cannot engage in intelligent conversation because the longest book they read in the last 30 years is color by numbers and they think Kylie Jenner should be a billionaire so they donated their last 20 bucks in checking to her GoFundMe. But hey, gimme free healthcare because that doesnt already exist as a program called Medicaid, amirite?
edit on 20-8-2018 by drewlander because: (no reason given)




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