Missouri Voters Reject Anti-Union right-to-work law

a reply to: TheRedneck

What, did you think the dues were charitable contributions?

No. But they are tax deductible. At least, they used to be. Not sure about the new tax law.

The only way this could even be legal is if the job description specifies that certain dues will be deducted from the pay scale to support the union.

Yes, that would be part of the employment agreement (which the union would require that the employer invoke as part of the collective bargaining agreement). Sort of. The way it works though is that non-union employees are paid at the union pay scale and have a payroll deduction made. The reasoning of the unions is that since all employees are benefiting from the collective bargaining agreement even non-union employees should pay the union. This bill proposed to make doing that illegal. This bill failed to pass.


No one is being forced to join any union. They are being forced to pay reduced union dues from which they do (arguably) obtain benefits.


For the record, I'm in favor of right to work legislation. I'm also in favor of getting the fact straight.

a reply to: Phage

I can at least see the legality of it in that case. I still disagree with forcing people to pay for the ability to hold a job... it just seems un-American to me, if legal.

I do find one thing ironic, considering the bill under the light you just gave on it... it seems many of the same people who want to regulate corporations into extinction to somehow benefit the workers are in this case quite pleased that such power to make demands on the workers is allowed.

Kinda hurts my brain trying to resolve those two positions...

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Unions are a kick, the more you understand them.

Actually, not much to understand except that the leadership does very well for itself.

It's the way of the world.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: TheRedneck

Unions are a kick, the more you understand them.

Actually, not much to understand except that the leadership does very well for itself.

It's the way of the world.

If you have served, you would know that rank has it's privileges.

Our stewards and officers answer to the members however. The financial books are open for any member to review upon request.

This broad brushing of all unions is just lazy thinking.

a reply to: olaru12

And everything is on the books. Of course.

a reply to: Phage

It always is... until someone discovers it isn't.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: wylekat
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I've been informed NC's 'right to work' law is *vastly* different from others states'. It figures. This place just stinks on ice.

Tell me why this is bad?

When we say that North Carolina is a “right to work state,” we mean that a North Carolina employee cannot be required to join a union as a condition of employment. An employer who has a factory in NC might recognize a union, and NC employees may choose to join the union, but they cannot be required to do so.

steffanlaw.com...

In states without right to work laws, some (but not all) employers will have what is called a “closed shop,” meaning that only union members are hired to work there, so all employees must join the union.

Why do you want someone to be FORCED to join a union they do not want to be a part of or be unable to work if they don't?

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Why do you want someone to be FORCED to join a union they do not want to be a part of or be unable to work if they don't?

No one can be forced to join a union.

However, "union shops" are allowed to disallow hiring non-union workers. Do you want to force them to do so?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: olaru12

And everything is on the books. Of course.

That kind of sarcastic hyperbole is unlike you! I thought that was my domain...

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Why do you want someone to be FORCED to join a union they do not want to be a part of or be unable to work if they don't?

No one can be forced to join a union.

However, "union shops" are allowed to disallow hiring non-union workers. Do you want to force them to do so?

Giving people a choice is not forcing. They ARE forced. If the business owner wants to hire them, and they want to be hired, they are FORCED to join the union and have zero say.

originally posted by: tinner07
a reply to: Metallicus

I don’t agree with paying dues to an organization that’s doesn’t represent me or my values. Union dues are basically an extra tax that supports Democrats and their failed agenda.

So you don't join a union then right? See how easy that is and you didn't even need a law to tell you that.

You don't have a choice about it. That's the issue ; Join the union or don't work here.

originally posted by: tinner07
a reply to: Metallicus

I don’t agree with paying dues to an organization that’s doesn’t represent me or my values. Union dues are basically an extra tax that supports Democrats and their failed agenda.

So you don't join a union then right? See how easy that is and you didn't even need a law to tell you that.

Except the Unions have made it so if you don't join the Union you can't work. The employer is not allowed to hire non-union employees. So if you don't join the Union, you can't work.

So let's take it one step further. Let's say I am a hardcore Democrat, and I really hate Republicans. Every job in America becomes Unionized, great right? Now those Unions start supporting Republicans because they find they make more money that way.

Now, I have 2 options, I either can't work or I support Republicans through my union dues keeping them in power with my own money. And that is what you think is right?

Many jobs have employment conditions.

Wear this uniform (bought at your own expense) or don't work here.
Submit to this corporate indoctrination (at home) or don't work here.
Have at least a four year degree or don't work here.
Submit to continuing drug and alcohol testing or don't work here.
Sing this stupid birthday song for our customers or don't work here.
Be at least a dues-objecting member of this employee organization which protects your job, pay, and retirement or don't work here.

For many of you only one of those is objectionable.

It mystifies me.

But everyone just loves slurping up the benefits those employee associations bring them!

a reply to: Montana

That list just indicates your work ethic... or lack thereof. You seem to think a job is something it is not.

Wear this uniform (bought at your own expense) or don't work here.

I disagree with this. If it is required for the position (not the industry), it should be provided.

Submit to this corporate indoctrination (at home) or don't work here.

Where have you been working? Never heard of this.

Have at least a four year degree or don't work here.

This one is reasonable, since many jobs require a 4-year degree (or the equivalent knowledge) to do the job.

Submit to continuing drug and alcohol testing or don't work here.

I don't like that myself. I do say anyone who shows up for work high or drunk should be fired on the spot... and blackballed.

Sing this stupid birthday song for our customers or don't work here.

Is part of the job description to sing a stupid birthday song?

Be at least a dues-objecting member of this employee organization which protects your job, pay, and retirement or don't work here.

Obviously I disagree with this one.

The bottom line is that you took apples and started comparing them to vehicles and soup. I believe once money is earned, it is yours to do with as you please, and I believe that one's time off the clock is one's own time. Think about it this way: you hire someone for $1000 to paint your house (I honestly don't know the going rate; I do my own painting). Do you get to take $100 out of his pay for anything? No! Do you get to tell him what he can do in the evenings after he leaves? No! Do you get to make him take a medical test? No!

On the other hand, do you get to verify he is able to paint a house good? Sure! Do you get to inspect his insurance policy? Sure! Do you get to specify what he paints and what color he uses? Sure!

If one looks at it that way, the answers to all of your questions become clear, and it follows that while some of your questions are absolutely outside of an employer's reasonable demands, some are not!

TheRedneck

a reply to: Montana

Because that is the contract between employer and employee. I can be very happy with that contract and be very unhappy with the union, and now I have no choice. Not because of any problem with the job, or employer, but because a 3rd party is now forcing me to pay for things I disagree with.

If every plumbing job is unionized it's now not a question of which company I join, it's that I can't join ANY of them.

If I want to work at company X, and company X wants to hire me, why should union Y have any say whatsoever?

And therein lies the issue. We're talking about people being forced to pay union dues even if they don't belong to the union. So even if he chooses not to join the union, he still has to pay. Not so simple.

a reply to: seagull

That's what I didn't understand about the failure of this proposition. No one was trying to freeze unions out, only to keep them from stealing money from the pockets of those who chose not to join the union. Makes no sense to me at all that someone who isn't part of the union has to pay dues anyway. That's like if my grandson had to pay Cub Scout dues even though he's not a Cub Scout, just because some of the other boys in his class are Cub Scouts.

Notice no one is commenting on the last line of my post.

They don't want to have to start at minimum wage (or whatever the starting wage happens to be) and fight for every piddly little 10 cent raise. They shouldn't have to go to the boss and figure out how to convince him or her they should be given paid vacation. How about weekends, what is your negotiating strategy to change the seven day work week you hired out under? Safety regulations?!?!? That's just communist! Sick days, retirement, almost every little improvement in the working conditions in this country are in place due to organized workers in one way or another.

But now that it's pretty good, you don't feel you should have to belong to the groups of employees that have done all the work for you. The organized people that fought, bled, were sent to prison and in some cases died to improve the workplace practices over the last century deserve what? A pat on the back from your oh-so-deserving hand?

And we dang well better believe if you aren't paid and treated the same (or better!) as the union member working next to you tears will be running knee deep.

There's that down home loyalty and gratitude we hear so much about!

originally posted by: Montana
Notice no one is commenting on the last line of my post.

They don't want to have to start at minimum wage (or whatever the starting wage happens to be) and fight for every piddly little 10 cent raise. They shouldn't have to go to the boss and figure out how to convince him or her they should be given paid vacation. How about weekends, what is your negotiating strategy to change the seven day work week you hired out under? Safety regulations?!?!? That's just communist! Sick days, retirement, almost every little improvement in the working conditions in this country are in place due to organized workers in one way or another.

I live in a RTW state, raises are automatic for me every year. I take a vacation every other month, paid. I can call out of work up to 18 days a year and they can't even ask me why.

Stop the BS.

With that said, I love the IDEA of unions, unfortunately Unions have become just as evil as the evil they were originally created to fight against.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Montana

That list just indicates your work ethic... or lack thereof. You seem to think a job is something it is not.

My work ethic is fantastic, thank you very much. I am extremely capable and highly sought after in my workplace. I work harder longer and more efficiently than nearly any other employee there. I have learned my skills and earned my reputation during the more than 30 year career I have nearly completed.

But go ahead and attack the player...