"Poop Patrol" to clean human feces from SF streets, homelessness ignored, Little India

originally posted by: stormcell

originally posted by: openyourmind1262
a reply to: gr8skott

Yea, shatting on the side walk don't really help anyone ...does it? San Fran most liberal area in the country...…..In my opinion....this is SOCIALISM at it's finest. It' what the liberal SJW of San Fran want. So if you want it then live with the shat on the sidewalk. Or spend that cash on social programs to help these people out. Or just do nothing and think the problem's gonna go away......Doing nothing aint working folks.

Normally the homeless would poop into plastic bags and toss those plastic bags into trash cans. But to be environmentally friendly San Francisco banned plastic bags. So the homeless have nowhere to poop.

The city could distribute camping van potties.

Thank you for this valuable information, stormcell. I knew that straws were on their way out and that most stores don't pass out plastic bags anymore but I didn't know that bags there been banned altogether. Most of the reports suggested that the homeless problem had not increased, it had just become more visible. They blamed redevelopment of areas the homeless used to inhabit as the reason, but that is a fairly regular thing for homeless encampments. Nobody sitting on a board voting yes or no on whether or not to ban plastic bags has any concept that there are people who regularly use them as toilets. Most of the "free" people that I know do indeed # into a double bagged plastic and responsibly pitch it in a trash receptacle. Those camp johns that you whizz in one hole and deuce in the other just leaves you with 5 gallons of # that's awkward to carry, 2 gallons of piss, and nowhere to dump it.

How bout that. Bigger than snip:

California becomes first state to ban plastic bags - September 30, 2014

originally posted by: Necrobile

originally posted by: gr8skott
The money they are going to spend on power washers, water, and manpower indefinitely washing feces off the streets would be better spent helping the people who are crapping there.

Do you know how much those items will cost compared to offering "quality" mental health care?? Something tells me that it would be cheaper in the long run to hire some people to clean the streets than to put in the time and effort into "fixing" the mental health of the homeless, especially because many are homeless for different reasons.

My wife and I have actually volunteered at the homeless shelter around here a few times, and even though it's a small town, we have a lot of homeless people. Some are homeless because they aren't capable of taking care of themselves and have no one to take care of them. Others are homeless by choice, either because they're alcoholics/drug abusers, too prideful to take advantage of programs to help them, or young/naive and don't feel like being a part of society. Some of them are there for one simple reason......# happens.

My point being is that "quality" mental health would not be cheap in the long run. I know hiring people to clean the streets isn't the best solution, but raising taxes on everyone so people can have "quality" mental health care isn't going to help, either. I'm currently the only one working and I have to take care of my wife, my 2 dogs and myself. If my taxes were raised for mental health care, then there's a good chance I wouldn't be able to make it anymore. At least I'd have mental health care, though, right??

I live in the Seattle area, they spend 100's of millions just cleaning up after the homeless encampments after they allow them to form and then make them move. Never underestimate how much the government will spend to do a simple labor job.

I would say the bulk of the homeless fit into 2 categories: mentally diminished and drug addicted. There is also the youth problems and just normal folks that couldn't keep up monetarily, I doubt the latter are crapping in the streets.

Mental health would be beneficial for the severely mentally disabled, but there has to be more. They need help finding some form of housing and jobs for those that can work. Felons, for example are discriminated against. Many rentals will not rent to felons,and jobs will not hire them. Being a convicted felon is not so rare any more, not in the US. There are a myriad of issues for the homeless. The cost of housing is ridiculous in many areas and wages don't go up at the same level.

originally posted by: gr8skott

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: intrepid
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Sounds like it's an American problem, not a city one.

If it's an American problem, then it's an American cultural problem. This crap didn't happen before we started rejecting personal responsibility, excusing failure, and coddling weakness.

www.numbeo.com...
www.numbeo.com...

The answer is an iron fist where enforcement and tolerance is concerned. Screw up badly enough and instead of getting coddled and covered for, you should get removed permanently from the community.

Right, and all the mentally ill will easily adjust! Definitely the reason for all this drug addiction and homelessness is a lack of laws and law enforcement! Just punish and alienate people who haven’t been given any direction in life! It’s definitely their own fault for not trying harder and doesn’t have anything to do with the lack of resources and attention, and abuse many of these people received as children!

your constant blathering about the homeless and their mental problems, and about the government not properly helping them as well as caring for them, is getting a bit tiresome. yes a great many homeless do in fact have mental problems that should be appropriately dealt with. but mental illness is far from the only reason. even drug use though another big grouping of the homeless is just one of the many different reasons people are homeless.


but lets just look at mental illness, and drug abuse cases for a moment. since you are so very concerned about it. one thing it would be interesting to know is just how old you are? i would have to guess you would be on the young side, and don't know much about history (which is a major issue with the education system these days). do you realize that not really all that long ago in the scheme of things, the government did in fact try to appropriately deal with many of those people on the streets due to mental illness and drug/alcohol abuse? do you want to know why it stopped?


it was people of a liberal, currant democratic outlook that stopped this care. people who in a lot of ways sounded just like you. all concerned about the welfare of these people suffering from mental issues and drug/alcohol abuse that put them out on the streets. they in fact forced the closures of all the mental institutions that were sheltering, caring for, and trying to help them deal with their problems. all because these institutions were considered cruel. as well as keeping the patients was wrongly imprisoning them. they quite literally forced these people out onto the streets. taking away that help and shelter. the sad thing is that in the city i grew up in. most of those people never even left the area the institution was located in. many even staying on the property having nowhere else to go, and no one to try to care for them. and a great many of those people who had been kept in those institutions were completely unable to do anything to take care of themselves. they were totally dependant on that care. yet it was "caring" people just like you that took their help away from them. all in the name of social justice.


so it was a problem to try to help them. now it's a problem that we are not helping them. it seem s that the government is dammed if they do, and dammed if they don't. so if it's cruel to help such people, and take care of them. yet it's also cruel to let them do as they will. what can be done?

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: gr8skott

They should train the stray dogs to clean up after the stray humans.

you bring up an interesting point. in many cities it is a finable offense not to clean up your dog's poo when it craps on lawns and sidewalks. why are somehow these humans exempt from this type of thing?

originally posted by: generik

originally posted by: gr8skott

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: intrepid
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Sounds like it's an American problem, not a city one.

If it's an American problem, then it's an American cultural problem. This crap didn't happen before we started rejecting personal responsibility, excusing failure, and coddling weakness.

www.numbeo.com...
www.numbeo.com...

The answer is an iron fist where enforcement and tolerance is concerned. Screw up badly enough and instead of getting coddled and covered for, you should get removed permanently from the community.

Right, and all the mentally ill will easily adjust! Definitely the reason for all this drug addiction and homelessness is a lack of laws and law enforcement! Just punish and alienate people who haven’t been given any direction in life! It’s definitely their own fault for not trying harder and doesn’t have anything to do with the lack of resources and attention, and abuse many of these people received as children!

your constant blathering about the homeless and their mental problems, and about the government not properly helping them as well as caring for them, is getting a bit tiresome. yes a great many homeless do in fact have mental problems that should be appropriately dealt with. but mental illness is far from the only reason. even drug use though another big grouping of the homeless is just one of the many different reasons people are homeless.



so it was a problem to try to help them. now it's a problem that we are not helping them. it seem s that the government is dammed if they do, and dammed if they don't. so if it's cruel to help such people, and take care of them. yet it's also cruel to let them do as they will. what can be done?

Sorry my blathering distracted you from reading my posts. Let me sum up what I mentioned before: Drug addiction is a mental problem. People self-medicate. If you are abusing drugs, you have a mental problem and quality mental health care would benefit you. This is not new news or even debatable.

I agree that the government locking people up is not the answer. The government is not the answer at all. The answer lies in making people aware that this is even happening in the first place so they might give a flying hoot about it.

However the whole point of my OP is that powerwashing poop off the street is not going to solve the problem the way that providing more facilities for the poopers, or trying to help them live someplace with a toilet would.

a reply to: chr0naut

It is the fault of the pandering politicians and the bleeding hearts. This nation used to have and enforce "No Loitering" laws. We also used to have poor farms and asylums where the indigent, the feeble, and the insane were contained in an environment which was designed for their unique needs while not placing undue burdens on the productive majority of society. We need to return to those policies and those practices.

Wash it into the storm sewers and maybe it'll end up in Mexico

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: chr0naut

It is the fault of the pandering politicians and the bleeding hearts. This nation used to have and enforce "No Loitering" laws. We also used to have poor farms and asylums where the indigent, the feeble, and the insane were contained in an environment which was designed for their unique needs while not placing undue burdens on the productive majority of society. We need to return to those policies and those practices.

Insane Asylums went away once we had ways that worked to actually treat those with mental illness. One might also argue that definition of mental illness has changed, too.

Here's a question, is drug addiction a mental illness? I would say it is a medical condition, absolutely, but it involves addictive response, part of normal stimulus-reward mechanism which is inherent in all creatures and is necessary for survival. Once we indulge in 'reward' activities, our brains compensate by turning down the effect, a feedback loop that means we get used to the high and need more stimulus next time. With drugs, this means a greater dose to achieve the same effect - i.e: addictive response. This is normal. It is the way our brain is supposed to work, seeking balance and finessing 'experience' from a swamp of simultaneous sensation.

It is obvious, though, that simply locking away the mentally ill and the drug addicted is NOT a solution to their problems, at all. Criminalizing the conditions (as has been done) is clearly an expensive ongoing failure.

Incarceration of those with medical and psychological conditions still happens, and on a massive scale in the US. It clearly isn't a solution.

And the poor farms sound a bit like what Thomas Paine proposed for the poor in his "Agrarian Justice" pamphlet. How very socialist of you.

a reply to: gr8skott

By that person's point flew right over your head. It's the same point I made myself.

You cannot force a mentally ill person to take care of themselves and if they are too mentally ill, they are incapable of doing it themselves!

What part of that don't you get? There is a certain point at which mentally ill people cannot do for themselves. You more or less have to do for them which has been prevented because it is deemed a cruel violation of their rights. There is no treatment that will make many of these homeless able to function on their own.

As for the drug addicted, this is again an issue of many of them not being far gone enough to want to clean themselves up. An addict has to want to get clean and stay clean or they have to be forced to be clean. If you can't force them to be clean and they have no desire to be clean, then you are going to see them right back where they are now ... on the streets.

a reply to: chr0naut

It isn't my only idea for a solution, mind you. I've said before that I'd support legalizing all drugs. Legalize them and drop the prices down to where nobody has to steal to buy their fix, BUT I also believe we shouldn't be saving these folks from themselves. If an addict overdoses, the public should not be responsible for picking up the tab for their revival... let Darwin's law take it's course and allow nature to do what nature does.

It would be a lot cheaper in the long run to just put portapotties in the areas where people poop.
At the same time, you could either implement a needle exchange program to get needles off the street or put in some sort of tamper proof needle boxes for disposal of needles by junkies

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: chr0naut

It isn't my only idea for a solution, mind you. I've said before that I'd support legalizing all drugs. Legalize them and drop the prices down to where nobody has to steal to buy their fix, BUT I also believe we shouldn't be saving these folks from themselves. If an addict overdoses, the public should not be responsible for picking up the tab for their revival... let Darwin's law take it's course and allow nature to do what nature does.

I'm a little bit more pragmatist about drug addiction being a medical issue. My solution is to decriminalize the drugs (not necessarily legalize them) and make them available cheaply (or at the cost of production plus, say, a 10% markup to grease the wheels) but only under medical prescription and as part of an ongoing plan for harm reduction and potentially breaking addiction.

The issue in the US is that the cost of medicine is exorbitant. It doesn't have to be. In a 1st world country, good healthcare should be considered a human right rather than an opportunity to gouge for profit.

Other countries seem to be able to make their medical practitioners and drug companies profitable with subsidized (and sometimes even free of charge) healthcare. List of countries with universal health care From Wikipedia

Darwinian natural selection is stupid as government policy. Everyone will die. Everyone will require medical assistance during their lives. It isn't as though only the poor and mentally ill will suffer, even the richest capitalist would be advantaged with good healthcare.

Have you also considered what happens when you blast water at the temporary housing like tents and cardboard? Think water cannons and crowd control. It is another non solution to the problem but reinforces the US as the most un-free, unfair society in human history.

One description of 'home' is that it is the most private and comfortable place to go to the toilet. If all they have is the street, that's what they'll use.

To me, the quickest solution is to give them easy access to more, better and nicer places to poop. Even if they are just portaloo's, which they could put in place at a moments notice and in the hundreds. The city could also employ some of the homeless in the process of cleaning and provisioning them.

originally posted by: chr0naut
Have you also considered what happens when you blast water at the temporary housing like tents and cardboard?

...obviously the pests move.

ETA: You're a bleeding heart. Let me ask you this, what tangible benefit does society receive for bending over backwards and giving even more of our hard earned money to programs that only benefit the takers of the world?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: chr0naut
Have you also considered what happens when you blast water at the temporary housing like tents and cardboard?

...obviously the pests move.

Not necessarily, if they have nowhere to go.

They don't die either.

So they, being human, will take up their "God given" weapons (how WTF imbecilic is that law!) and assert their right to exist as best they can (The Darwin award winners will be on both sides of that epically stupid consequence).

PS. I don't think I'm a bleeding heart. I'm just reading the writing on the wall. There was so much hope in the American experiment but look at the poop that's happened!

a reply to: chr0naut

We've already established that most of the homeless are that way because they're otherwise unemployable due to issues with addiction or mental illness.

How on earth do you plan to employ them to clean portapotties?

Some of this sounds really nice, but you're basing it on the assumption that these are otherwise normal, functional people who just need to have stuff given to them in order to get off the streets. If that were the case, they'd likely be off the streets pretty quickly. There are many aid orgs already in place designed to give people down on their luck a hand up. Many of the people out on San Fran's streets are the hard-core homeless with much more intractable issues that simply providing handouts to will only serve as a band-aid to, not a realistic, long-term solution.

I share the distaste of others for simply attempting to sweep the problem under the rug by providing easy handouts to make it seem to go away. That's too expensive. There are too many who would be content to simply take and not improve their actual lot.

Unless you can offer a real answer that would actually solve the root issues, it's a non-starter.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: chr0naut

We've already established that most of the homeless are that way because they're otherwise unemployable due to issues with addiction or mental illness.

How on earth do you plan to employ them to clean portapotties?

Some of this sounds really nice, but you're basing it on the assumption that these are otherwise normal, functional people who just need to have stuff given to them in order to get off the streets. If that were the case, they'd likely be off the streets pretty quickly. There are many aid orgs already in place designed to give people down on their luck a hand up. Many of the people out on San Fran's streets are the hard-core homeless with much more intractable issues that simply providing handouts to will only serve as a band-aid to, not a realistic, long-term solution.

I share the distaste of others for simply attempting to sweep the problem under the rug by providing easy handouts to make it seem to go away. That's too expensive. There are too many who would be content to simply take and not improve their actual lot.

Unless you can offer a real answer that would actually solve the root issues, it's a non-starter.

The US could look at the way other countries deal with homelessness, but they don't because they are 'right' and everyone else is wrong.

California should be a prime example of failed liberal policies.

Liberals fail to look at consequences and constantly ignore over population, lack of jobs, lack of resources, school over crowding.


They are either suicidal or just really obtuse

originally posted by: CriticalStinker

originally posted by: gr8skott
a reply to: PillarOfFire

Glaringly obvious that they're all in it together when they're more willing to hire people to blast %&$& with water than have an ounce of compassion for people in the streets.

Japan pays their homeless to take care of sections or blocks. Streets are clean, and homeless are happy to have a few tasks a couple of yen to spend.

That is the smartest, most empowering. and most productive concept I have heard to deal with the messes. Leave it to the Japanese.

originally posted by: pointessa

originally posted by: CriticalStinker

originally posted by: gr8skott
a reply to: PillarOfFire

Glaringly obvious that they're all in it together when they're more willing to hire people to blast %&$& with water than have an ounce of compassion for people in the streets.

Japan pays their homeless to take care of sections or blocks. Streets are clean, and homeless are happy to have a few tasks a couple of yen to spend.

That is the smartest, most empowering. and most productive concept I have heard to deal with the messes. Leave it to the Japanese.

It is bitter sweet though, some of them are cleaning up the Fukushima. Although others have specific areas, or blocks they are responsible for.