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For the hating Dems and Antifa Clowns.

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posted on Aug, 15 2018 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: Thejoncrichton

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Interestingly enough, the only people who use the word "free" in relation to Socialism or Communism are conservatives. I've never heard a self-proclaimed Socialist EVER say that social programs are free stuff.


Oh really?

It’s Time to Make College Tuition Free and Debt Free
berniesanders.com...

The word "free" appears 10 times in that piece.

Lots of references to "free" in the google search "Bernie Sanders free"

Free college, free health care. the word FREE is used ABUNDANTLY.





. Well you beat me to it but I'm keeping my post up anyway.




posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 07:00 AM
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originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Our system has been moving steadily away from socialism for the last 40 years or so and corruption and wealth inequality has steadily risen while wage growth has had a pitiful growth rate since.


I just do not like this talking point. Many live payday to payday for many reasons. I know people who make more than 200k a year that live payday to payday. If you and I made the same money and I saved 100 bucks a month for 10 years and you didn't, you could say it is unfair that I have 12,000 times your savings.

Whether some rich person has 10 million, 100 million or 100 billion it doesn't really change that people will continue to live payday to payday.

There is an aspect that separates the regular people from the super rich. It is good financial education. These people know how to properly manage their finances because they are trained from birth to do it.

The reason Americans live paycheck to paycheck is because Americans have terrible financial education. Which is weird. You'd think that a country that values money as much as the US does its citizenry would want to educate its children on how to properly maintain and build it. Yet there are no classes in grade school on how to manage finances. Even up through High School it not only isn't required to take one of these classes, they largely don't exist.

Then kids go to college and the first thing that happens is predatory lenders give them credit cards to load up credit card debt. This is on top of the student loans they took on that can't be charged off in bankruptcy just to go to college in the first place. This is an ongoing practice that predates the millennial credit problem. Gen Xers were hit with it too.

Here's the kicker. I believe this issue is symptomatic of our country's rightward lurch away from Socialism. Back when the social safety net was stronger people valued financial education much more. We had a progressive income tax that hit up to 90% yet people were still able to save money, have retirement funds, go on vacations, and have a nice life. It can work. We've made it work before.

You can suggest this attitude was a holdover of the Great Depression teaching people to save money more, but I have my doubts after looking at our own recession and how it didn't wake anyone up afterwards (well I guess it woke up a bunch of millennials but not enough for them to vote to change anything). In fact we are letting our banks go right back to what they were doing pre-2008. So this is why my belief is that there is also a political aspect to it. The politics leads to social stigmas which cycles back on itself in a downward spiral to where we are today. The movement away from socialism is too inward looking and selfish. Helping each other to help yourself lifts everyone. Helping only yourself just makes things harder on everyone, yourself included.


The big question is do you think if we took all the money from the rich and made a socialized utopia would people have a more quality life?

I just do not think humans work that way....

I believe that there are many fixes needed to raise our quality of life, but increased Socialism would be a good start. We've had a 90% progressive income tax in the past and our country didn't implode from it. In fact it flourished. So I have no worries that we'll be fine if we adopt it again.
edit on 16-8-2018 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 07:54 AM
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originally posted by: CriticalStinker

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: CriticalStinker

Fair airnough.



My guess is the market will dictate that direction soon, but I could be wrong.


Toldya! Way too far gone already.

Who in their right mind would let this junkie of a market dictate directions, you're in on the next fix of quantitave easing or what?


It's not just Americas market. Look at Syria, arguably a war over a pipeline to Europe.

The market will dictate it, that's how things go. Once petrol and LP climb to a rate where the public won't consume at that price, alternatives will be sought.

What do you suggest?


Look into the hydro-electric dam projects in Turkey and how those resulted in droughts and civil war. It's a very complex issue. The pipeline is merely a fragment of the whole picture, and quite possibly a rather redundant sidenote.

Anyhow. I'll suggest what I always tend to suggest: dissolve corporations and create syndicates instead, the black projects from our armed forces won't transform this society whilst staying in the dark. Instead of jamming the streets, I'd really like to see my fellow mon(ey)keys traversing the skies in antigrav cars.

This could be our reality already, but we've got corporate cronyism and profit-driven divisions instead. Who woulda thunkt!



posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 08:28 AM
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a reply to: skywatcher44

When I was very young, my mother taught me to never hate anyone.

As I grew older I learned why.

Most people are really not worth the expenditure of emotional energy.



posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 08:28 AM
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a reply to: skywatcher44

When I was very young, my mother taught me to never hate anyone.

As I grew older I learned why.

Most people are really not worth the expenditure of emotional energy.

((Double post ... but maybe it was done for a reason.))
edit on 16-8-2018 by tinymind because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 10:54 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t


There is an aspect that separates the regular people from the super rich. It is good financial education. These people know how to properly manage their finances because they are trained from birth to do it.

The reason Americans live paycheck to paycheck is because Americans have terrible financial education. Which is weird. You'd think that a country that values money as much as the US does its citizenry would want to educate its children on how to properly maintain and build it. Yet there are no classes in grade school on how to manage finances. Even up through High School it not only isn't required to take one of these classes, they largely don't exist.


There is that, but I see this above as a simple problem compared to what really seems to be going on. I lived pay check to pay check until I as in my 30s and a part of that was I just wasn't making enough money to do otherwise while unwilling to lower my standards of living to not do that. I actually was about -200 to -300 bucks a month so I was building debt monthly that becomes a horrendous challenge to pay off.

The foundation of our problems is we are the biggest consumer society in the world....spend spend spend like there ain't no end....

I always tell people it is not how much you make it is how much you spend. When you look at young people today and see what they feel is a must have it is a rather expensive lifestyle.




Then kids go to college and the first thing that happens is predatory lenders give them credit cards to load up credit card debt. This is on top of the student loans they took on that can't be charged off in bankruptcy just to go to college in the first place. This is an ongoing practice that predates the millennial credit problem. Gen Xers were hit with it too.


For 70% of people that go to college it is a big money making scam. Many who go should not, and they should look at good trade/skill jobs...plumbers, as example, make bank..BTW...

Colleges invent degrees for people who should not go to college, and these degree do not align with anything in the job market. They then tell these kids this degree is a 100k job!! The kid leaves college with 60k debt and finds his degree and skill sets gets him a 12 buck an hour job. The kid them blames the rich and joins the 99%er club...lol




Here's the kicker. I believe this issue is symptomatic of our country's rightward lurch away from Socialism. Back when the social safety net was stronger people valued financial education much more. We had a progressive income tax that hit up to 90% yet people were still able to save money, have retirement funds, go on vacations, and have a nice life. It can work. We've made it work before.


When was the social safety net stronger? Prior to SS what socialized programs did we have? Churches and communities were the social net with the Government mostly out of it.



The movement away from socialism is too inward looking and selfish. Helping each other to help yourself lifts everyone. Helping only yourself just makes things harder on everyone, yourself included.


I do not understand your socialism here...I agree with socialism at the individual level, I disagree at the Government level...

Lets look at a living wage, or what people feel it should be. When I ask people what represents that they say the cost of 1 person living on their own. The problem I have with that is that is expensive and is not some "right" as much of the world does not do that. Groups live together to create synergy with their limited resources where individuals can not do it but as a group they can.

I had roommates until my 30s when I finally made enough to live on my own, as example. The old story of the Indian family that comes here and 10 live in 1 apartment. 10 of them get minimum paying jobs at 7/11s and in a few years they pool their money and by some crap store in a bad part of town and they run it as a family. 10 years later they own 5 7/11s....

This is an age old story of success that young people today can not understand. The problem I have with a Government style socialism is anytime the Government gets involved it is too expensive and not very good, so self induced socialism will always be better and more effective.








edit on 16-8-2018 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 12:22 PM
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originally posted by: Xtrozero
There is that, but I see this above as a simple problem compared to what really seems to be going on. I lived pay check to pay check until I as in my 30s and a part of that was I just wasn't making enough money to do otherwise while unwilling to lower my standards of living to not do that. I actually was about -200 to -300 bucks a month so I was building debt monthly that becomes a horrendous challenge to pay off.

The foundation of our problems is we are the biggest consumer society in the world....spend spend spend like there ain't no end....

I always tell people it is not how much you make it is how much you spend. When you look at young people today and see what they feel is a must have it is a rather expensive lifestyle.

That sounds exactly like my experiences too. I agree. living -200 or -300 month to month is terrible and that hole really is tough to climb out of. However, young people's desire to have expensive stuff is indicative of their poor financial education. There is nothing wrong with wanting expensive stuff or having as much stuff as possible. You just have to be able to afford it. Too many people young and old rely on credit purchases to fund their lifestyles, but SOOO many don't know how credit cards really work. And they end up #ing themselves when they over-leverage the CC. But this is again a problem that can be solved with better financial education. Teach kids about interest rates, hidden fees, paying off the balance at the end of the month and other good credit card care tips. We damn sure can't rely on banks to teach us these things.



For 70% of people that go to college it is a big money making scam. Many who go should not, and they should look at good trade/skill jobs...plumbers, as example, make bank..BTW...

Colleges invent degrees for people who should not go to college, and these degree do not align with anything in the job market. They then tell these kids this degree is a 100k job!! The kid leaves college with 60k debt and finds his degree and skill sets gets him a 12 buck an hour job. The kid them blames the rich and joins the 99%er club...lol

This is a consequence of for profit colleges. We could always switch to public offered colleges and then degrees can be tailored to job markets.


When was the social safety net stronger? Prior to SS what socialized programs did we have? Churches and communities were the social net with the Government mostly out of it.

1950's or 1960's the social safety net was much stronger. The programs themselves may have been the same ones that exist today, but the legislation supporting them was much stronger and they were more reliable than they are today.


I do not understand your socialism here...I agree with socialism at the individual level, I disagree at the Government level...

Lets look at a living wage, or what people feel it should be. When I ask people what represents that they say the cost of 1 person living on their own. The problem I have with that is that is expensive and is not some "right" as much of the world does not do that. Groups live together to create synergy with their limited resources where individuals can not do it but as a group they can.

If Europe can pull it off, I'm pretty sure we can figure something out.


I had roommates until my 30s when I finally made enough to live on my own, as example. The old story of the Indian family that comes here and 10 live in 1 apartment. 10 of them get minimum paying jobs at 7/11s and in a few years they pool their money and by some crap store in a bad part of town and they run it as a family. 10 years later they own 5 7/11s....

Illegal immigrants do that now.


This is an age old story of success that young people today can not understand. The problem I have with a Government style socialism is anytime the Government gets involved it is too expensive and not very good, so self induced socialism will always be better and more effective.

This isn't true. European socialism is very affordable. Also, don't pass around the fallacy that young people aren't hardworking, because it is largely believed that millennials are one of the hardest working generations since the greatest generation thanks to many of the things we are currently discussing and more.



posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 02:53 PM
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Did you happen to read this part in that piece?

FULLY PAID FOR BY IMPOSING A TAX ON WALL STREET SPECULATORS.

Ummm...

Ok, so you're saying that it is Ok that they used the word 'free' multiple times, because they really are just going to pay for it with wealth stolen from others.

Gotcha...



posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 04:20 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

This is a consequence of for profit colleges. We could always switch to public offered colleges and then degrees can be tailored to job markets.



I would have no problem in extending 12 grades to 14 with the two extra a trade school.



1950's or 1960's the social safety net was much stronger. The programs themselves may have been the same ones that exist today, but the legislation supporting them was much stronger and they were more reliable than they are today.



I disagree, the social safety net was churches and active communities, and not the Government. Then over the past 60 years we have replaced that localized support with Government programs. The big difference is in the localized support you are a person, one that people know, and so you are taken care of about as well as one could be. In a Government program you are only a number, and we know how that goes.




This isn't true. European socialism is very affordable. Also, don't pass around the fallacy that young people aren't hardworking, because it is largely believed that millennials are one of the hardest working generations since the greatest generation thanks to many of the things we are currently discussing and more.


I'm not convinced it is when we take that model and expand it out to 330 million plus. Lots would need to change...as we look at the Dutch, 43k avg income, 60% tax, 25% sales tax. Most live close to their work and walk or ride a bike, don't have a lot in their houses...they live a rather simple lifestyle and that is something you learn from birth, not something you jump into.

Small populations, good GNP in comparison, small land foot print...ya things can work...



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