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A Vietnam Vet Killed An Intruder Who Tried To Strangle His Grandson, Then Police Shot Him

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posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 08:57 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Most human being who wake up to a family member being choked, fire a weapon in a 10x10 room, and kill somebody are going to have some kind of shock, ...

While I understand that, you should also be able to see it from the officer's point of view, too. What I'm interested in is the audio from any bodycams...I want to know if anyone was telling the officers that Mr. Black was the homeowner or if there was just a lot of screaming and chaos, or something else.

But I'll tell you, someone with the wherewithal to try and save their grandson, then when he can't get the attacker off of them, go find their pistol and eliminate the threat, they probably wouldn't be in shock. Of course, we're both just guessing at this point--I think that it may have had more to do with Mr. Black's hearing issues.


... also the number of Vietnam vets with ptsd is quite high. It was a drafted war. Many of them also have health problems.

The Department of Veterans Affairs puts the estimated number at 30% of Vietnam vets have had PTSD in their lifetime, but only about 15% are currently diagnosed with it. So, odds are, Mr. Black did not, by well more than a 2:1 margin. To put it better, there are 69% of Vietnam vets without ever having had PTSD in their lifetime (and some of those will have worked through the issues by now). I will err on the side of probability and say that it was not PTSD that caused Mr. Black to ignore commands to drop his weapon or that caused him to advance toward officers with a gun in his hand while shining his flashlight in the face of the officers.




posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:07 AM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: luthier

All i know is that Police seem to be doing really bad things and carrying out acts of depravity against a surprising amount of the wrong people these days.

Please, show the stats that back this up. Of course, "surprising amount" is objective, so please elaborate.


When those that are there to protect the innocent and uphold the law of the land are just as bad as the criminal element then something is very wrong indeed.

To be fair, LEOs aren't there to "protect the innocent," they're there to enforce laws in response (most of the time) to calls for help AFTER THE FACT.

As for upholding the law, they certainly are supposed to act within the laws as applied to police officers, which are often different than laws governing civilians when it comes to use of force. Knowing the difference matters, and it is different from state to state, for the most part.


The reality is that Police kill innocent civilians almost on a daily basis these days or so it seems.


It only seems that way to people who ignore the facts of each case. The very dramatic majority of officer-involved shootings which result in the death of an individual are 100% justified and reasonable. I challenge you to prove otherwise, because I've done my research on the matter many different times over the years.


The reality is that contacting Police or having dealings with such can get you very very dead these days should they deem you to have farted in the wrong direction.


No, that's your own paranoid delusion in which you're living and have convinced yourself that it's everyone's reality. Those of us on the outside of that delusion can generally see reality a bit better.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:10 AM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey

Well we are both martial artists correct? We both understand adrenaline dumps correct?

When a person who is what in their 70's has a blast of adrenaline that pusheshe their cardio to the extreme (and given the number of health issues many Vietnam vets have) and your fire a weapon in a small possibly dark room and kill someone the effects of this are pretty well studied in separation.

We know what an adrenaline dump can do to the elderly never mind a tussle that last several minutes...

Then you have an actual trigger of killing another human being.

I do not blame the officers. I don't think they have the training to safely enter and secure a home to begin with. Having say crappy sidearm with insanely stiff triggers may help create anxiety for the officers.

My beef is with the protocol. I would give officers more tools, but at the same time have more accountability, pay, rotation out to destress..

But I don't have a magic wand. I sure wouldn't want to be a police officer, and I respect the ones I live near. But I also understand they aren't always capable of making good decisions based on the methods and training as well as the screening.

And ps. Those studies are from the early 80's. Psychology looks a bit different today with understanding brain injury.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:16 AM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: SlapMonkey

You think children that witness there grandparents execution will eventually reflect on the experience with objectivity??? LoL

That's some wishful thinking right there buddy.

Happens all of the time, but it's not easy.

Or they can succumb to pure emotion and probable psychological scarring and just let that consume them. I like to think that most people would prefer to overcome such things--you apparently don't. I can already assume what path you would take by your previous and subsequent comments...


Nothing to do with being an "internet tough guy" if you murdered my grandfather i would eventually find you and make you pay for it as would many other people. That's not tough that's prudent as what goes around, comes around.

Ah, I see--watched "Taken" a few too many times. Yes, there are many other people who act that way, and they're called mentally unstable people consumed by revenge. You honestly do not sound like a mentally healthy individual...something that I've suspected for a while, but an glad to get confirmation.


Logic dictates that Police do not kill innocents, else they are simply not doing their job, simple really.

Logic dictates that two wrongs don't make a right, and that speaking in unproven hyperboles and making false claims of murder is not an intelligent approach to take in a conversation.

Logic dictates that sometimes human beings can make a deadly mistake, even if the events leading up to it can excuse the use of the deadly force.

But, yes, let's act like gangsters and embrace murderous retaliation for such things--that'll really show those coppers!

Your "logic" is as delusional as your reality.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:18 AM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey

Aye im wrong, Police are just wonderful persons that only have our best interest at heart. LoL

It is what it is, and Police are what they are i'm afraid.

Else things like that old Mans murder would simply not happen with the frequency that do, and the pace is increasing.

Not the first incident, certainly won't be the last.

My 2 cents, the job simply attracts the wrong sorts these days, that being people with a uniform complex, people who wish to dish out the law as they see fit as opposed to the law of the land.

It's the reality that delusional, not the people, just a thought.


Not suggesting there are not good Police but they are getting fewer and further between or so it seems to me.

Anyway R.I.P old yin you done a Mans job, your reward should have been so much better, that's a given.

edit on 8-8-2018 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:26 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: SlapMonkey

I sure wouldn't want to be a police officer, and I respect the ones I live near. But I also understand they aren't always capable of making good decisions based on the methods and training as well as the screening.

Like I've noted many times, their training can always be better, for sure, and the quality and quantity changes from department to department--I don't know what training this department has had.

But as it happens, even special-forces Soldiers make mistakes from time to time, and they are highly trained. Fire fighters make mistakes during fires, and they're highly trained. So do medics, and doctors, and professional race car drivers, and many other professions where mistakes cost people their lives.

Human being will always make questionable decisions, especially in high-stress situations, but that doesn't mean that when they do that the action is murder, like andy06shake keeps claiming, or that LEOs are murdering "innocents" on the daily. That is the hyperbole that I just cannot stomach.

So, sure, maybe Mr. Black was in shock, but that's why I want to see video and hear audio, because this seems like a sad case of poor decisions on his part leading to a deadly end, but from the evidence and statements that we have so far, the officer seems neither negligent nor unjustified in his actions at the time that he pulled the trigger.


And ps. Those studies are from the early 80's. Psychology looks a bit different today with understanding brain injury.

All that I can do is go on what's still cited by the Department of Veterans Affairs, and that's what's still on their website (and that's why the estimate is at 31%, which is based on the verified 15% from that 80's study). I'm not arguing that the number isn't probably a bit higher, but it is a fact that PTSD can be overcome, so no matter how many returned with it, many, if not most, have overcome it by the time that they're in their 70s.

I'm not discounting the possibility, I just said that I'm going to side with probability based on statistics.

ETA: Just as an aside, I have been promoted from Apprentice Instructor to Associate Instructor (Krav Maga) way earlier than I expected/hoped. That was a pleasant surprise. I'm hoping to start taking Silat soon, too, which should really help hone my footwork.

edit on 8-8-2018 by SlapMonkey because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:34 AM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Aye im wrong, Police are just wonderful persons that only have our best interest at heart. LoL

Most are, yes...again, unless you can prove me wrong with statistics to prove it. But I've already done the research, so good luck on proving your passive-aggressive claim that they're not.


My 2 cents, the job simply attracts the wrong sorts these days, that being people with a uniform complex, people who wish to disk out the law as they see fit as opposed to the law of the land.

See, now we can agree--to a point. I know for a fact that there are bad apples in law enforcement, and that's obviously no secret. I do wish that we'd do a better job screening people before handing over a badge and a gun, but the reality is that the signs of being the wrong person for the job aren't always known at the time of employment.


It's the reality that delusional, not the people, just a thought.

This makes no sense.


Not suggesting there are not good Police but they are getting fewer and further between or so it seems to me.

See, again, I can agree with the "so it seems" part of that, because we generally only hear about the bad/questionable instances of use of force/deadly force splashed on national/international news and websites. All of the good, standard LEOs fly under the radar of media, and therefore we only hear about the bad ones, hence the perception of it seeming like the good ones are getting fewer.

The cliché "It only takes one" exists for a reason, and it's true.


Anyway R.I.P old yin you done a Mans job, your reward should have been better, that's a given.


Again...agreed.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:44 AM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey

Ptsd can return when you say,..are forced to kill another person....in fact it's likely to trigger brain trauma.

And as far as a person not doing the correct thing in their own home after killing an intruder, I am sorry but the burden should be on this man's property rights and the officers should be given trained accordingly. Including dispatch. Something went wrong here that isn't the homeowner. This wasn't a man on the streets and what would the reason be to be agressive towards police beyond being confused? Shooting a Co fused homeowner is still a problem.

Where I think your argument fails is like you say with the numbers. Police aren't well trained in firearms unless they train themselves, and studies show they don't very often, nor are they in shape. I make that statement over and over because what happens to a fighter when the cardio goes? They make mental mistakes.

Sorry but these are big deals and large numbers of officers suffer from this. Not a minority.

The same situatuon that applies to a man in their 70's in regards to adrenaline and decision making applies to people out of shape or who have not trained to control adrenaline and de esculate...

This officer was involved in another shooting. Not necessarily damning but it's an anomaly.

I don't think domestic dispute training is focused enough on in many forces. I think also proceduraly having a gunner with a rifle behind an officer trying to assess the situation, with the gunner being specialized like many forces around the world in shots fired situations. I am not saying you enter every home like commandos but if their are shots fired you want the officers to be confident if things do go down they can defend themselves.

I don't think that is always the case and often rural sheriff's have better access to the equipment that makes them feel comfortable.

People think police are training pop up targets with their partners using hand signals every week, truth is they often don't do much after the initial learning and some infrequent maintenance.


The fight or flight process takes 20 minutes. You will need a 20 minute respite to completely calm down physiologically! If the stressful situation remains, your heart rate will remain elevated, and your body will pump out adrenaline and your thinking will be clouded.

edit on 8-8-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:44 AM
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It is said that an American citizen is 54 times more likely to die due to a police officer than a terrorist.

That number might be a bit low.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey


ETA: Just as an aside, I have been promoted from Apprentice Instructor to Associate Instructor (Krav Maga) way earlier than I expected/hoped. That was a pleasant surprise. I'm hoping to start taking Silat soon, too, which should really help hone my footwork.


Nice. Silat,and kali are some of those "self defense" arts that actually work. You don't find these guys on mcdojolife. Which is awesome if you haven't seen the instagram..

Around 2007 when I was still competing seriously in judo I used to do the Gracie challenge kind of thing with guys who would come to the gym talking about magic punches, I made the mistake of thinking a silat guy was one of those (he had a whole black ninja like uniform so I assumed he was one of these fakers) we decided on mma rules, and even with pads and plenty of striking back round it was very painful...my floating ribs still remind me..



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:49 AM
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originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Aye im wrong, Police are just wonderful persons that only have our best interest at heart. LoL

Most are, yes...again, unless you can prove me wrong with statistics to prove it. But I've already done the research, so good luck on proving your passive-aggressive claim that they're not.


My 2 cents, the job simply attracts the wrong sorts these days, that being people with a uniform complex, people who wish to disk out the law as they see fit as opposed to the law of the land.

See, now we can agree--to a point. I know for a fact that there are bad apples in law enforcement, and that's obviously no secret. I do wish that we'd do a better job screening people before handing over a badge and a gun, but the reality is that the signs of being the wrong person for the job aren't always known at the time of employment.


It's the reality that delusional, not the people, just a thought.

This makes no sense.


Not suggesting there are not good Police but they are getting fewer and further between or so it seems to me.

See, again, I can agree with the "so it seems" part of that, because we generally only hear about the bad/questionable instances of use of force/deadly force splashed on national/international news and websites. All of the good, standard LEOs fly under the radar of media, and therefore we only hear about the bad ones, hence the perception of it seeming like the good ones are getting fewer.

The cliché "It only takes one" exists for a reason, and it's true.


Anyway R.I.P old yin you done a Mans job, your reward should have been better, that's a given.


Again...agreed.


I think this is less about the fact that bad cops get hired, but rather bad cops are intensely defended by the police unions/DA's/courts and often protected from firing or other retributive actions from the department for their misdeeds, which in turn creates an environment where the 'bad apples' are emboldened to continue their behavior. One could even argue that when 'good' officers see what the 'bad apples' can get away with they become more lax in their own behavior as a result.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:51 AM
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a reply to: 727Sky

Im pissed. What happens to the cops? They get coddled and counseling, as well as a mini vacation with no money worries in sight?

Its not like they will get fired. Forget criminal charges. Its not like they will stop being cops over this....right?

Ps'OS
EDIT TO ADD:
Lesson: Dont call the cops unless you absolutely need to. Its like throwing the dice as to whether you get a human being that will reason and act accordingly or a Robocop that is pure metal and instinct that will "let the bodies hit the floor".

In this situation, I would call the paramedics to pick up a body. Let the cops come with questions and handcuffs drawn later.

Play dumb in silence until you are safe.

edit on 8 8 2018 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 10:36 AM
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a reply to: luthier

Again, I understand the dynamics of PTSD, but at this point, we're just guessing, as I have yet to see anything pointing to the fact that Mr. Black had PTSD. I'm done guessing about that, or about his state of shock, or anything else until there is evidence to show that it's probable.

As for your argument about being in his home--that doesn't matter. Once officers were called to the home, heard the gunshots, and saw a man with a gun, Mr. Black's status as the homeowner is irrelevant to his need to listen to and follow commands by the officers, for his and their own safety. But I do agree that dispatch seems to be a weak link in this regrettable instance, for sure. They should have relayed physical descriptions to the officers, at the least.

And again, I agree about the training issues, but that doesn't automatically make their actions murder if those who are supposed to be training them properly fail in doing so, especially in this particular instance (and we don't even know how well they were trained, we are assuming that they are average, though, which isn't the best). Hell, I'm not a LEO and probably have a bigger passion and drive to train more consistently with my firearms and tactics I've been trained in.

And I train just for fun, as I never expect to need to use that training in my lifetime, but since it's fun and could potentially be useful, why not, amirite?



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 10:47 AM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey

Well its not murder. That isn't my claim. My claim is the procedures create unnecessary situations that can be cleaned up.

Does everyone shoot themselves cleaning theit guns? No, but more than should do. Especially when training and awareness can be improved and failure to improve equals death.


If you are saying it's possible these cops did in fact commit murder then that is a different argument. I am not even considering that because I don't have that information. I do have two odds however these cops were not thinking clearly because they aren't trained to. If they do on their own is not something we should hope for.

Can you a knowledge mistakes in this field have a higher danger than painting g football fields?

Yet they are treated and paid about the same in many cases. . What do we expect?

In a system where lack of information (by dispatch) gets people killed and everyone can write off its just an accident things just don't get cleaned up.


I know a LOT of Leo's from 20 years of grappling. I can tell you a lot of them feel the same way about having to serve with lazy people and their own lives be endangered by poor standards. It's just not a job where laziness can not be mitigated.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 11:02 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: SlapMonkey


If you are saying it's possible these cops did in fact commit murder then that is a different argument. I am not even considering that because I don't have that information.


Nope--I'm citing that because I'm in a dialogue with andy06shake, and he thinks that it is. It's an extreme view that exists, so I mentioned it.


In a system where lack of information (by dispatch) gets people killed and everyone can write off its just an accident things just don't get cleaned up.

I was just having a similar discussion with my son (14) last night because of the Kyle Plush case that happened here in Cincinnati--poor 16-year-old kid was trapped upside down in his minivan and died of slow suffocation trapped between a folding seat and the inside of the hatch door. He was able to call 911 using Siri two times, and police never found him--his dad did. The 911 dispatch did not relay GPS information to officers, and it was initially treated like a probably prank call. The dispatch folks were also consistently overworked and exhausted because of lack of funding for more employees, and their system was glitching during calls and was outdated.

It took the sad death of this kid, but Cincinnati is now updating its systems and doing better training for this type of stuff, as well as hiring more 911 dispatch employees.

Very sad story...really enflames the empathy and anger at the same time.



I know a LOT of Leo's from 20 years of grappling. I can tell you a lot of them feel the same way about having to serve with lazy people and their own lives be endangered by poor standards. It's just not a job where laziness can not be mitigated.

Understood--I know many LEOs myself (including a cousin-in-law and a great friend), and live in a neighborhood that seems to be a first-responder hub of living (easily have about 25 LEOs living in our neighborhood), and they say the same thing.

That is where better standards of physical fitness and weight should come into play, but as noted by your or someone else, I think that police unions fight against that type of stuff, and it's sad that they do, and it's antithetical to being a good officer.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 11:06 AM
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a reply to: Wayfarer

I don't disagree with that, to a degree.

Not all acquittals and options not to charge officers, though, fall under the protection category, and in the same breath, not all filed charges are warranted, either.

It's a tough line to walk, but there are definitely areas where bad cops (and justice officials) are protected unjustly.

I once had to meet with investigatory agents and an assistant US attorney in Los Angeles--the stories that they told me about open corruption and illegalities by attorneys and law enforcement, along with blind eyes by some judges, might just make you lose faith in the system as a whole if you couldn't realize that Los Angeles is a caricature of and exception to the average court system in America.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 02:30 PM
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originally posted by: luthier
Police unions 100 percent legally lobby politicians. Those politicians write laws. Not only that they are part of department procedure...if they say out guys need this method it makes them safe, they get it.


Lobbying is not prohibited for law enforcement / law enforcement unions. As a matter of fact Springfield Mo was having issues between the Police and the city council regarding pension funding (the city was massively underfunding it). The police union sent reps to Jefferson City to directly lobby politicians to support a law that would require the city to full meet their funding obligations and of they dont tax revenue due the city by the state government would be directed to the pension system.

My post merely pointed out the difference between public and non public unions.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 02:37 PM
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originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Qualified immunity for law enforcement ONLY applies when the officer is involved n a use of force incident and the conclusion of all investigations show the officer was within departmental policies/guidelines/procedures and the officer did not violate any laws by their actions.

If the officer is found to have violated policy but not the law the agency and political unit it is attached to can disassociate themselves from the officer for civil actions. This allows the officer to be civilly sued and leaves him solely responsible for any judgments against him.


This is true. However if the unions have protected bad players and have lobbied for bad laws it doesn't matter.

Most officers are not capable of doing the jobs the public has forced them into, they don't have the training.

Have you ever looked at the out of shape numbers?

Have you looked at the marksmanship numbers?

Those are two glaring problems unions don't seem very interested in solving.

They do however help you get tanks and new cars.


Well I am in shape and have received extensive training. A police academy, regardless of how many hours it is, cannot teach in a classroom what an officer will experience while on duty. Law Enforcement is very much an on the job training profession.

After a police academy all states require so many hours of continuing training each year in additional to the on the job training. I have seen the stats and so you know police unions have nothing to do with training. That is the responsibility of the agency command staff and the political entity they are attached to. They can represent their block of officers by meeting with command staff to discuss training and what not but at the end of the day, as with almost all other organizations that have a chain of command structure, ultimately decisions lie at the top of the chain.

So while I understand what you are saying I disagree with your conclusions on this.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 02:48 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Well I would consider yourself a good officer. I don't know you and we disagree in quite a bit, but it's obvious you take your job seriously and it's the people like you who can use better judgement.

I can't say it's even the majority of officers that are in shape. If 80 percent are really out of shape as the fbi reports, then that effects decision making with fight or flight responses effecting the body at a much higher degree.

As a trainer and former fighter mostly in grappling with some stand up I can tell you we train to stay calm. The people who don't make mistakes. That principle applies to combat and soldiers are also conditioned for stress and pt is at a level that keeps soldiers fit.

It's not just for running after bad guys it's for clear thinking when stress is at a maximum.


My point is that unions protect policies that are negative for their own benefit.

The article from the National review I posted listed some of the ways...

edit on 8-8-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 08:19 PM
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Aye im wrong, Police are just wonderful persons that only have our best interest at heart. LoL

It is what it is, and Police are what they are i'm afraid.


What a broad brush you use, to paint an entire profession. Yea, there are bad cops. Overzealous cops. Rude cops. Also there are heroic cops. Sympathetic cops. Careful cops. Living in Aurora, I've heard plenty of news about this - the chief does believe once the body cam is shown, it will be clear that there was no intent to kill an innocent man.

If they entered.. and the guy turned with a gun.. flashed his light at them.. didn't respond to multiple attempts to drop his weapon, would you think even raising his gun the smallest amount would result in the cops shooting him? I do. They had no way of knowing he was hearing impaired. If they were not given a description of the owner of the home, why would they just magically know this was the hero, not the armed intruder.

I've had a few run-ins with police in Aurora, never had a problem, they were always professional. Sure.. there are lousy cops. Just like there are lousy teachers, lawyers, politicians, managers, you name it. Unfortunately when police get it wrong, it can be fatal. I do think police are under-trained - which is directly related to their high (14%) attrition rate. Which is not hard to believe, as everyone seems to think they are scum and all are out to kill you at a moments notice. That sure is hell a job I wouldn't want.



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