California’s fire tornado is what climate change looks like

originally posted by: RAY1990
Why is there no middle ground on this topic?

It's always extreme denial or hardcore blaming of the world's change on humans.

The climate is changing, it's what it does. Yet some of it is created by us. Like the great US dust bowl of the 1930's. A man made problem due to new (at the time) agricultural practices, it effected 5 US states and had devastating effects, if that's not man made climate change then I don't know what is... Plenty more examples world wide.

Yeah the climate changes naturally, it balances itself out and one event can have knock on effects that can be far reaching, to deny humans can have any weight on these scales is somewhat idiotic though since we have plenty of examples of human activity affecting the climate.

Smog anyone? How about a little acid rain? The atmosphere affects the biosphere, the same is true in reverse. We affect them both.

Jumping up and down on the scales whilst screaming bs achieves nothing.

The climate is shaped by heat, water and CO2 exchange between the land and air. Researchers have mathematical equations to model this. Most of this depends on how light or dark the surface is (called the albedo), whether it is reflective white like snow and ocean or dark like road tar, soot and soil. Desert rock absorbs heat during the day and releases it rapidly at night. Water will absorb energy like heat and retain it, evaporating above a certain temperature. Trees absorb infra-red and ultra-violet but reflect green light. So an expanding urban city becomes the equivalent of a hot desert with the dark tarmac absorbing large amounts of heat. Cutting down trees doesn't help. Nor does filling in lakes.
The flow of ocean currents provides transportation of heat from the equator to the cooler northern latitudes, but this can shut down due to variations in the flow of cold fresh-water. It's like chaos theory - a small change somewhere can act like a relay switch and activate/deactivate something major.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Well, you gotta love 'The whole World is in the grips of a global heat wave this summer".

The only problem is that here in the Southern Hemisphere, it is WINTER!! and a Very cold one.

No, we are not having an "Unusually" warm winter.....It is cold and wet where I am, just like most winters.

Yes, some areas of the country are in Drought, a few years ago, they were in Floods!!

Welcome to Planet Earth, where one day/year can be totally different to the next.

Yes, when its too cold, or too much snow, it is the Weather.

When it gets a little hotter, then its Climate Change.

The Problem is, if the Earth actually does get "Hotter", it will also become Wetter, as more H2O is precipitated into clouds and rain.......as in the tropics.

We Always have droughts, whether Australia, North America, South America, Asia, Africa etc etc......its just our dynamic climate at work.
Either Adapt, like the ancients...or die, like the ancients.....we are still here you know.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: FyreByrd

No pictures?

Go to 1:50 on the video. Actually 2 huge tornado-like clou

originally posted by: Gothmog

Welcome to the new normal.

Until the next change , when we are all complaining about the record cold wave..
And the cycle of life continues.
Exactly the way the Earth has behaved since day 1

You can’t even supplying needed data about the weather conditions around 200 years ago and then speaking of day 1..?

Dude, we “LIVE TOADY” and what we have “TODAY” and what we can “DO” about it are important for all of us “even you”. I don’t care what was looked like before but I “DO CARE” what is “NOW” and what’s in it for the near future and the “next generations and our KIDS”.

This unusual heat wave created wildfire outbreak that no one seen in Scandinavia since 150 years ago and you want to tell me (Exactly the way the Earth has behaved since day 1) ?


www.thelocal.se...


And the California… every damn year those poor people suffering a living HELL (as long as I remember as my age allows it and I am 62) still not a good time to do something about it yet??


www.wired.co.uk...


Last year the US had a chance to do something beneficial for the mankind but that arrogant “orange-clown-in-chief at the whorehouse” walked out of the Paris agreement just to upsetting the process of rare international climate cooperation.

This tweeting idiot is there to instigate the whole world, creating chaos and then bugout at the end of his (EF-ing) term, delivering all problems he created to the next one same as Bush senior did before Clinton and Clinton to the next Bush and Bush to Mr. Obama (which you hate him much).


Think about the world we are living in it NOW as long as we are almost SANE tomorrow is not a new day and another story, it will be too late.

originally posted by: Kintek

originally posted by: Gothmog

Welcome to the new normal.

Until the next change , when we are all complaining about the record cold wave..
And the cycle of life continues.
Exactly the way the Earth has behaved since day 1

You can’t even supplying needed data about the weather conditions around 200 years ago and then speaking of day 1..?

Dude, we “LIVE TOADY” and what we have “TODAY” and what we can “DO” about it are important for all of us “even you”. I don’t care what was looked like before but I “DO CARE” what is “NOW” and what’s in it for the near future and the “next generations and our KIDS”.

This unusual heat wave created wildfire outbreak that no one seen in Scandinavia since 150 years ago and you want to tell me (Exactly the way the Earth has behaved since day 1) ?


www.thelocal.se...


And the California… every damn year those poor people suffering a living HELL (as long as I remember as my age allows it and I am 62) still not a good time to do something about it yet??


www.wired.co.uk...


Last year the US had a chance to do something beneficial for the mankind but that arrogant “orange-clown-in-chief at the whorehouse” walked out of the Paris agreement just to upsetting the process of rare international climate cooperation.

This tweeting idiot is there to instigate the whole world, creating chaos and then bugout at the end of his (EF-ing) term, delivering all problems he created to the next one same as Bush senior did before Clinton and Clinton to the next Bush and Bush to Mr. Obama (which you hate him much).


Think about the world we are living in it NOW as long as we are almost SANE tomorrow is not a new day and another story, it will be too late.

Biologists , geologists , archeologists do
In fact , the only ones that dont are so called "climatologists" . There process states they only have to go back 30 years.

Research
Learn
Then come back and we will talk.
Dont just mimic what your neighbor told you in a gossip session

Sooooo the uptick in Arson explains climate change? Or is it climate change F'Tards commiting Arson? I see Logic and Rhetoric isn't being taught in schools anymore...SMH.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Wildfires are natural. Many plants require fire in order to germinate. While fire tornados sound pretty biblical, I wish you had seen some of the dust storms I saw in Iraq. Wake me up when the sharknados start.

a reply to: Kintek

This unusual heat wave created wildfire outbreak that no one seen in Scandinavia since 150 years ago and you want to tell me (Exactly the way the Earth has behaved since day 1) ?

If it happened 150 years ago, that means it is not a change from past occurrences.

And the California… every damn year those poor people suffering a living HELL (as long as I remember as my age allows it and I am 62) still not a good time to do something about it yet??

If it has been happening for 62 years, it is not a change.

Again, the extent of the fires in California are the result of man's interference... man irrigated the countryside to grow more flammable material and built houses among it with even more flammable material. If you want that fixed, you are supporting stopping all building and irrigation in California.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ketsuko

When they dammed up Lake Isabella and started diverting it for irrigation in the Southern Sierra Nevadas, that was one of the biggest mistakes that they could have made. It turned the Bakersfield area and the southern San Joaquin Valley from a relative marshland to an arid desert full of artificial farm irrigation and a few tiny lakes (Buena Vista Lakes) that used to be so large that they overwhelmed the area when it was first discovered.

It's sad to see, and then dumbass laws protecting animals that shouldn't even be in certain places in the first place wreak further havoc on the issue. It's a state that lives far beyond its means for its natural amount of water, and continually dicks up the local climates and ecosystems by manipulating it further and further. It's the epitome of a self-fulfilling prophecy for those addicted to ecological doom porn.

No, these are not tornados.

For those who don't get it, when shrubs burn, their moisture evaporates into the sky riding the heated winds from the fire. When those heated, humid winds collide with cold, dry air, you get what you see here.

It's very similar to how pop-up thunderstorms are formed in the South, except these in California only happen because of a massive fire.

This is not the end of the world, but hey, climactic doom porn gets people excited, so let's all regurgitate it.

originally posted by: ketsuko
In a sense this is correct, but not the sense you think.

California is naturally a Mediterranean style climate zone with most of its moisture occurring in the fall/winter and type of scrub ecosystem based around shrubs. It's called chaparrel. The plants in those types of systems usually evolved to take advantage of fire in order to reproduce which should tell you something about what those climate zones are normally like.

When man moved out there, they liked the climate in terms of stable weather, but not in terms of the arid nature, so they started taking water anywhere they could get it. In effect, man changed the climate zone by making it less arid through irrigation, bringing water in even from as far away as the Colorado R.

Well, the green movement has been working to restore nature! And we're just seeing the change of the climate back to what it should be - one where fire is a prime mover again because it's arid, a desert.

A crock. California is desert & temperate - hardly a Mditerranean climate. In the south - it's moving towards sub-tropical in the central and eastern north ever toward desert and the western coast is remaining for the time being temperate.

No where is California is the tradition humidity of the Mediteraanean.

originally posted by: mobiusmale
I find it interesting that when unusualy cool/cold weather happens, and people chirp about "what happened to global warming?", the usual ATS suspects come on here to lecture us about the difference between weather events and the climate.

But...if we have unusually hot weather at any point - well game set and match for climate change!

The climate - the world-wild climate is a system.

A System is rather like a scale. If one part becomes heavy - another becomes lighter, back and forth until balance is restored. In this case heat and cold. That balance being the set point of the system as a whole.

Set points do change over long periods of time by small increments or if the quantity and severity of deviation from the the set point becomes more and more common.

The Fire storm it'elf will be balanced by a 'cold' event somewhere else at another time.

What is unique about this event is the winds 143 miles per hour (hurricane force) by the consumption of O2 by the fire. Get it?

Look up basic system theory before you pontificate.

originally posted by: RAY1990
Why is there no middle ground on this topic?

It's always extreme denial or hardcore blaming of the world's change on humans.

The climate is changing, it's what it does. Yet some of it is created by us. Like the great US dust bowl of the 1930's. A man made problem due to new (at the time) agricultural practices, it effected 5 US states and had devastating effects, if that's not man made climate change then I don't know what is... Plenty more examples world wide.

Yeah the climate changes naturally, it balances itself out and one event can have knock on effects that can be far reaching, to deny humans can have any weight on these scales is somewhat idiotic though since we have plenty of examples of human activity affecting the climate.

Smog anyone? How about a little acid rain? The atmosphere affects the biosphere, the same is true in reverse. We affect them both.

Jumping up and down on the scales whilst screaming bs achieves nothing.

The climate has, in the past, changed over hundreds of thousands of years, not 50 to 200 years. It's a matter of geologic time not human time.

a reply to: FyreByrd

What is unique about this event is the winds 143 miles per hour (hurricane force) by the consumption of O2 by the fire.

I know that's what the article in the OP says, but it's wrong. The high winds were created by very strong updrafts. Hot air, not oxygen consumption.


Also, much of California's climate is classified as Mediterranean.

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: Lightdhype
a reply to: rickymouse

We certainly are messing things up. On the other side of the country, Florida had another record setting year of red tide algae blooms and the associated millions of dead sea creatures are lining nearly the entire damn states beaches.

And why? Because they decided to completely alter the everglades and # up the natural routes for the water to drain back out to sea. They did this so the god damned sugar industry has enough pristine earth to farm their poison on. Yummy nitrogen phosphorus fertilizer water everywhere Yay! Because we all know Americans need nothing more than to contiue consuming ungodly amounts of sugar as it slowly kills us all.

Not to mention ruining the ecosystem so all the rich bastard elites can have extra land to develop real estate on. Land that was never meant to have millions of people living on it in giant highrise condos on rent.

But 'muh capitalism!'

I agree, we are definitely letting things get screwed up. But the climate change people will blame this all on carbon. That is the biggest reason I do not support climate change or global warming. The earth can repair itself if it's ecosystem is healthy, we are messing up the ecosystem pretty badly.

I tend to agree the issue is about more then burning carbon - it's about pollution of the environment of all types.

However, what you are not taking into account regarding the contemporary situation is the TIME scope.

The ecosystem takes hundred of thousands of years to change and or repair, this crisis is over the last 50 to 200.

If you happen to take time and watch weather channel live right now. They have shown 4 of them live while watching the live feed. The building across my work had a pretty big fire tornado on the top of the building a few months ago.

a reply to: ketsuko

TextWell, the green movement has been working to restore nature! And we're just seeing the change of the climate back to what it should be - one where fire is a prime mover again because it's arid, a desert.

Except that this is in the north, where you have an entirely different ecotone. California is a big state. True desert like the Mojave is harder to burn because of the sparse vegetation. You're thinking of the pyrophytic environments of mostly Southern and Central California. Malibu and parts of San Bernardino burn about every 15 years, and everyone is surprised. But these are fires that come with more extreme temperatures than we are used to, coupled with a late rainy season, in areas that haven't burned in a long time.

Veteran firefighters are saying these fires are not behaving the way they are used to having wildfire behave. Usually, it cools at night, and the humidity rises. They say that isn't happening. Also, fires normally go downslope slower. Not happening. And that erratic behavior also puts firefighter lives in danger. I believe the people who are out on the lines, when they need to be aware of it for survival.

And when fires burn that hot, it doesn't renew the pyrophytic growth by spurring seed release and burning the above ground vegetation, it also cooks the seeds and roots. Scorched earth. Earth will adapt, as the earth has all the time in the world. The question is--can we?

a reply to: Trueman

But I wanted to see decent quality from ground level, color shots, of mobile homes being sucked up into it and spit out a mile or so away, like giant fireballs raining down white trash down in their wake.

a reply to: Jilara

These climates were also designed for seasonal burns, not to have years upon years of dead undergrowth building up because fires have been prevented too.

You've created a giant boondoggle with years of mismanagement.

There's more than one reason why we burn off so much of our grassland out here on the plains from year to year every spring.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: Lightdhype
a reply to: rickymouse

We certainly are messing things up. On the other side of the country, Florida had another record setting year of red tide algae blooms and the associated millions of dead sea creatures are lining nearly the entire damn states beaches.

And why? Because they decided to completely alter the everglades and # up the natural routes for the water to drain back out to sea. They did this so the god damned sugar industry has enough pristine earth to farm their poison on. Yummy nitrogen phosphorus fertilizer water everywhere Yay! Because we all know Americans need nothing more than to contiue consuming ungodly amounts of sugar as it slowly kills us all.

Not to mention ruining the ecosystem so all the rich bastard elites can have extra land to develop real estate on. Land that was never meant to have millions of people living on it in giant highrise condos on rent.

But 'muh capitalism!'

I agree, we are definitely letting things get screwed up. But the climate change people will blame this all on carbon. That is the biggest reason I do not support climate change or global warming. The earth can repair itself if it's ecosystem is healthy, we are messing up the ecosystem pretty badly.

I tend to agree the issue is about more then burning carbon - it's about pollution of the environment of all types.

However, what you are not taking into account regarding the contemporary situation is the TIME scope.

The ecosystem takes hundred of thousands of years to change and or repair, this crisis is over the last 50 to 200.

We are messing with the ability of the ecosystem to repair the problem. It is more the chemicals and concentrated natural chemistry that is screwing up our planet's ability to repair itself. They said back in the sixties when I was in school that if we destroyed the rainforest that we would cause this type of event. Overlogging and waste of resources to make a buck making throwaway products is causing our ecosystem to collapse. Add Fracking and depleted underground aquifers to the mix and it alters weather patterns.

The carbon issue is a part of this, but it is just a part of it. I see these climate people using carbon as a scapegoat to boost the economy of the world. Buy new things that are more efficient even though their production further destroys the environment. A real lot of this climate change crap is just a scam to boost the economy.