What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

but Jesus is the only one who is capable of raising the dead to a life of eternity. The other people may have been brought back to a mortal life on earth for a time, but it was only temporary. Only Jesus is able to provide life for eternity.

Not true. Elijah and Enoch live eternity in heaven without Jesus' priovision. So do Moses, Jacob, David and all the prophets before Jesus. I understand exactly what eternity life is.

originally posted by: [post=23644167]Deetermined[/post
Jesus didn't go straight to Heaven. He resurrected and walked the earth for 40 days before he ascended to Heaven

It makes no differences. Resurrection and ascension has been done before without Jesus existence.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Jesus said, "I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." ( John 5:30 )

Once again, that was while he was living on earth.

Jesus also said...

John 5:21-23

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Once again, the verses above provide more clues that you'll continue to ignore.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

If "He has a name on Him which no one knows except Himself," then how did John of Patmos knew, "His name is called The Word of God?" Surely, John of Patmos would not know. Otherwise he should have written, "no one knows except Himself and Me."

That verse came from the "Revelation" of John that is a future event. At the time of Jesus' second coming, he will be given yet another name...

Revelation 19:11-13

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


Plus, in return, Jesus will give us new names. Read the last verse below very carefully. It gives another clue to God and Jesus being ONE and the same.

Revelation 3:11-12

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him MY new name.

All more "mystery" clues that most of you will choose to ignore.

So no explanation on why John of Patmos contradicted himself with "no one knows except himself" with regard to the name he called "The word of God"? More new names?

If Jesus is ONE TRUE GOD, then what's with, "I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him MY new name"?

Surely one true god won't say "In the name of MY GOD"?

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

Jesus said, "I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." ( John 5:30 )

Once again, that was while he was living on earth.

Jesus also said...

John 5:21-23

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Once again, the verses above provide more clues that you'll continue to ignore.

I chose to pay attention to "the father which hath sent him", which you choose to ignore. So tell me, if Jesus is the son of god, then who is the father which hath sent him? Surely he can't be sending himself to earth?

a reply to: EasternShadow

Not true. Elijah and Enoch live eternity in heaven without Jesus' priovision. So do Moses, Jacob, David and all the prophets before Jesus. I understand exactly what eternity life is.

Philippians 2:9-11

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 5:12-13

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

originally posted by: Deetermined

Philippians 2:9-11

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

His name is Jesus or Yeshua which mean saviour. His purpose is clearly defined by the John the Baptist as The Lamb of God. nowhere did John the Baptist ever identified him as God. Not even a god, like John the Apostle did. Mark identified Jesus as the son of Mary. Jesus place is the saviour of the world as his name, Jesus, implied. No more and no less.

originally posted by: Deetermined
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Lord and LORD has two different meanings in Bible translation. Lord is a title. LORD on the other hand, refer to God. This passage identifies two being. One is Lord Jesus who is the son, and the other is God the Father.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Revelation 5:12-13

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Sacrificial lamb does not live "for ever and ever". Otherwise what is the point of sacrificied? Why do you listen to the man who is "on high" and incapable of thinking consciously like John of Patmos?

a reply to: EasternShadow

I chose to pay attention to "the father which hath sent him", which you choose to ignore. So tell me, if Jesus is the son of god, then who is the father which hath sent him? Surely he can't be sending himself to earth?

LOL! Says who, you? These kinds of statements are the ones that make me laugh the hardest. While most will agree that God transcends all time and space, has the ability to be everywhere at once, holds all knowledge, created the universe and everything in it and this is what you have a problem imagining?

Atoms and molecules have the ability to split to create new matter (which God created by the way), but you don't think God has the ability to be Spirit and a physical manifestation at the same time?

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

I chose to pay attention to "the father which hath sent him", which you choose to ignore. So tell me, if Jesus is the son of god, then who is the father which hath sent him? Surely he can't be sending himself to earth?

LOL! Says who, you? These kinds of statements are the ones that make me laugh the hardest. While most will agree that God transcends all time and space, has the ability to be everywhere at once, holds all knowledge, created the universe and everything in it and this is what you have a problem imagining?

Atoms and molecules have the ability to split to create new matter (which God created by the way), but you don't think God has the ability to be Spirit and a physical manifestation at the same time?

Atom and molecules remain atom and molecules. Atom is not molecules and vice versa. The son is not the father. The father is not the son. They are what try are. They don't change because some people confuse what atom and molecules are.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Lord and LORD has two different meanings in Bible translation. Lord is a title. LORD on the other hand, refer to God. This passage identifies two being. One is Lord Jesus who is the son, and the other is God the Father.

Yet the Bible tells us two things. One, that no man has ever seen God except for the Son.

John 1:18

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Yet, in the meanwhile, we know that Abraham saw the LORD (God) and He communed with Abraham.

Genesis 18:33

33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Read all of Genesis 18 for context.

a reply to: EasternShadow

I'm done here. You're not even reading my comments thoroughly enough to respond to them with any intelligence. My point about atoms and molecules is that they have the ability to split and make new matter. I'm not wasting any more time trying to explain this to someone who doesn't believe in the Christian faith or studied the Bible.

Have a good evening.

originally posted by: EasternShadow

originally posted by: Joecroft
So my question to Christians is this…

What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

And if you don't know what the mystery is…i.e. God hasn’t revealed it to you yet…

Then why do you believe/accept it, when you don’t know the mystery behind it…?


I look forward to hearing people’s responses…

There is no mystery. All truth had been given. To say otherwise is denying Jesus last words before he departed.

God repeatedly call to worship HIM alone. He is the Father because He is the creator.

He is not made of flesh, therefore He is the Holy Spirit.

God is the most supreme entity. Nothing equal to HIM. Therefore, He neither procreates nor require a spouse. He is the beginning and everlasting. He does not need a wife or sons and daughters. We are HIS love. Every single one of us. There is no conditional love. There is no limit. There is no favoritism. To think otherwise is denying God unlimited love.. How can a father favor one son over the other? There is no such things as firstborn. We are all equal in god's eyes. This is the teaching of ALL prophets from Abraham to Jesus. Even Gabriel teach Muhammad to recite that God love everyone equally.

Matthew 5:43-48
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

There is no mystery and there is no trinity.

There is only one worthy god to be your father.

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

God doesn't love everything equally..this is the problem.

Another very large problem is God doesn't love itself.

It still has not learned a dam thing..which is why it always demands unreasonable and impossible things...and works to ensure that it stays that way.

God is defective and in serious trouble...it is almost too late now for repairs.

One thing is for sure...these books and religions are the largest of fails...the evidence all around for all too see...but the separation of itself is complete..

God wanted something new...total imperfection..and achieved this state.

And forgot what it was..to achieve that state.

Something entirely original and not covered by any religion or philosophy must arise shortly or all is lost...FOREVER.

And a hint for you...Worship is the biggest load of evil that has ever occurred...and is the source of the Gods that came after.

Anything demanding or even mentioning worship will be destroyed as it should be...whether or not God is repaired...they will not escape this.

The Swords are drawn even now...prepare

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Joecroft

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

The above verse from one of the Pauline Epistles, is the closest verse I can find in the Bible, which promotes a co-equal relationship between the Father and Jesus.

And here again we see Trinitarian bias show up in the translation (perhaps it's not entirely clear if it was on purpose or not), cause a more accurate rendering would be (NW):

6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.* [Lit., “came to be in the likeness of men.”] 8 More than that, when he came as a man,* [Lit., “when he was found in appearance as a man.”] he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake.* [See Glossary].

I've quoted verses 7 and 8 for 2 reasons, first, it shows that verse 6 is talking about Jesus' existence in heaven as a spirit being, God's form being spirit, just like the angels; which again shows he's not God cause otherwise it would have said "who, although being God". Second, there's a contrast put here between the pride and pretentiousness of wanting to be seen as or wanting to be equal to God and the humility of Jesus that stands in contrast to that Satanic attitude. Who "became obedient to the point of death", obedient to whom? If you go with the other translation this contrast indicated by saying "No...More than that..." doesn't seem to be there anymore.

Anyway, there's an even more obvious reason in verse 5 to discover and be sure that the translation you quoted is misleading and gives the wrong impression to people who want to read something else into the text (note that the KJ still doesn't say that Jesus is equal to God):

Philippians 2:5, 6:

KJ reads: “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (Dy has the same wording. JB reads: “he did not cling to his equality with God.”) However, in NW the latter portion of that passage reads: “who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure [Greek, har·pag·monʹ], namely, that he should be equal to God.” (RS, NE, TEV, NAB convey the same thought.)

Which thought agrees with the context? Verse 5 counsels Christians to imitate Christ in the matter here being discussed. Could they be urged to consider it “not robbery,” but their right, “to be equal with God”? Surely not! However, they can imitate one who “gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.” (NW) (Compare Genesis 3:5.) Such a translation also agrees with Jesus Christ himself, who said: “The Father is greater than I.”—John 14:28.

The Expositor’s Greek Testament says: “We cannot find any passage where [har·paʹzo] or any of its derivatives [including har·pag·monʹ] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize,’ ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense ‘grasp at’ into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’”—(Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1967), edited by W. Robertson Nicoll, Vol. III, pp. 436, 437.

Source: Trinity: Reasoning From the Scriptures

Which incidentally has such evidence (the facts) in response to most of the bible texts that Deetermined brought up as well. But don't count on a response from Trinitarians to this evidence. They'll probably just move on to the next card(s) instead like Deetermined did concerning Isaiah 44:6 stubbornly persisting in his interpretation that there are 2 people making a statement there without acknowledging or even discussing the evidence to the contrary, even that in the same and previous chapters in Isaiah, and without being very reasonable about it I might add (since the text itself already shows there's only 1 individual making that statement, especially if you mention Jehovah twice as Isaiah did; which is also an indication who the more honest translators are).

The 5-volume Expositor’s Greek Testament ranks among the most important commentaries on the Greek text of the New Testament from the 19th century, drawing from the scholarship of twenty contributors under the editorship of William Robertson Nicoll.

Source: The Expositor's Greek Testament (5 vols.) - Logos Bible Software

by W. Robertson Nicoll M.A. LL.D. (Editor), Rev. Alexander Balmain Bruce D.D. Professor Of Apologetics (Author), Rev. Marcus Rods D.D. Professor Of Exegetical Theology (Author), & 8 more
...
The Epistle To The Philippians By The Rev. H. A. A. Kennedy, D.Sc.

Source: Amazon (that was just to show that these are Trinitarians)

But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. (2 Timothy 3:13)

Talking about Isaiah chapter 44, why not have a look at the next chapter in an honest translation that won't leave out God's personal name and replace it with "the LORD" or "the Lord" or other phony dishonest and misleading substitutes (note especially verse 11 in relation to Isaiah 44:6):

The phrase "Jehovah of armies" at Isaiah 44:6 also comes up in this video (using Isaiah 1:9 and Romans 9:29), but for other reasons (just mentioning it because I quoted that text from the NIV before and it relates to my comment about honesty in translation):
JW ARCHIVES DIVINE NAME YHWH JEHOVAH NWT NIV COMPARE.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

It gives another clue to God and Jesus being ONE and the same.

Revelation 3:11-12

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him MY new name.

All more "mystery" clues that most of you will choose to ignore.

My God, you seem to be ignoring Jesus saying "my God".

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

Yet the Bible tells us two things. One, that no man has ever seen God except for the Son.

John 1:18

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

You forget, Jesus said to Philip, "Anyone who has seen me, has seen the Father. How can you said, show us the father?" ( John 14:9 ).

So what does it tell you? Contradiction? Nope.

We know it is a metaphor, because it is not applied to Pontius Pilate, the Pharisee, the Centurions and the crowds who wanted Jesus death.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Yet, in the meanwhile, we know that Abraham saw the LORD (God) and He communed with Abraham.

Genesis 18:33

33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Read all of Genesis 18 for context.

Abraham did not see God. He saw THREE MEN. The only reason why he call them "adonai" is because they are representatives from God. They were the angels.

Neither, Moses see God's face. He hide himself out of fear.

No one has ever see God ( directly ), except the Son. Not Abraham, not Moses. What John 1:18 said still stands.

Now consider this, if Jesus in the bosom of the Father, the begotten son, then he had a beginning and not eternal. Since Jesus himself a creation of a creator god, then Jesus is not the god of Israelites. The god of Israelites is everlasting, always exist, always watching, never dies, never cried hopelessly, never wasting his 30 years abandoning the entire cosmos just to be helpless human who loose all his omniscience and omnipotent.

There is only one god. He is our Father in Heaven.

a reply to: EasternShadow

You forget, Jesus said to Philip, "Anyone who has seen me, has seen the Father. How can you said, show us the father?" ( John 14:9 ).

So what does it tell you? Contradiction? Nope.

We know it is a metaphor, because it is not applied to Pontius Pilate, the Pharisee, the Centurions and the crowds who wanted Jesus death.

No, what John 14:9 tells us is that Jesus represents the Father, but that the Pharisees didn't recognize Him because they never truly belonged to the Father. Remember, only Jesus' sheep hear his voice.

John 10:24-28

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Go back to my post about why Jesus spoke in parables. Did you not understand it either?

a reply to: EasternShadow

Abraham did not see God. He saw THREE MEN. The only reason why he call them "adonai" is because they are representatives from God. They were the angels.

Now you're contradicting yourself because you said that LORD in all capital letters represented the Father God. Besides, the three "men" accompanied the LORD to visit Abraham, but stayed behind for a time while the three men moved on to Sodom.

Genesis 18:1-3, 22, 33

1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3 And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Now consider this, if Jesus in the bosom of the Father, the begotten son, then he had a beginning and not eternal. Since Jesus himself a creation of a creator god, then Jesus is not the god of Israelites.

We've already shown how Jesus was in the beginning with God and is the one who created everything, so why are we backtracking here?

John 1:1-3, 10-11, 14

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

a reply to: EasternShadow

If Jesus is ONE TRUE GOD, then what's with, "I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him MY new name"?

There's a reason that Jesus says that HIS name will be written on everyone at the end of the sentence. God's name and Jesus' name will be ONE.

Zechariah 14:9

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

1 John 5:7

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

This is another reason why the book of Revelation tells us that God AND the Lamb (Jesus) both sit on the throne together in Heaven.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

Go back to my post about why Jesus spoke in parables. Did you not understand it either?

I wrote,"We ( you and I ), know it is a metaphor..."

Did you purposely ignore it too?

The reason I brought it up because Genesis 18:1-3, 22, 33 are also parables. Abraham calling the three visitors as LORD, is another form of parables, and should not be read literally. It is a parable because Had Abraham actually saw GOD, he would die instantly.

a reply to: EasternShadow

LOL! You're reaching so far to grasp at straws, you're not even making sense any longer.

No, these stories are NOT metaphors. The story of Abraham and the LORD is not a parable either.

For some reason, your brain can't wrap around the fact that Abraham being able to see the LORD is because the LORD is Jesus. Otherwise known as Jehovah, the Angel of the LORD, and everything else that represents God in the physical.

Remember, God is an invisible Spirit and Jesus was, throughout the Old and New Testament, his physical representation throughout history. This is why the Bible is capable of claiming that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit make up ONE.