After watching The Stan Romeneck Story, are there any un-debunkable abduction cases?

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

What is really surprising here is that she described that test 10 years before it even existed. It became obsolete soon after with chemical tests being more practical and efficient. amniocentesis first used needles inserted through the navel, then later through the abdomen as the techniques changed

That's interesting...there are stars on her map that weren't identified until the 1969 Gliese update...so what other things did Betty talk about 10 years before it existed? It appears she may have been quite the visionary!

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
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Wow, you could really use some more research there bud. 10 years after Betty Hill was reportedly abducted. a medical pregnancy test was developed using a long needle inserted into the naval.
snip

Yesterday, I researched this test. I found a source saying that the test had been created in 1959. I didn't post it 'cause the thread has definitely been hijacked and I didn't want to help beat a dead horse. Today, I tried to find the source and I wasn't able to. Perhaps one of you will want to tackle it.

Betty Hill was a Social Worker. Perhaps she found out about the seminal test.

a reply to: BiffJordan

To stick to the OP and get away from the Hills bs, here are a couple of cases that could use some research which I can't get involved with presently.

From Wikipedia
Antônio Vilas-Boas (in many English sources misspelled "Villas-Boas") (1934–1991) was a Brazilian farmer (later a lawyer) who claimed to have been abducted by extraterrestrials in 1957. Though similar stories had circulated for years beforehand, Vilas Boas' claims were among the first alien abduction stories to receive wide attention.[1][2] Some skeptics today consider the abduction story to be little more than a hoax, although Antonio nonetheless reportedly stuck to his account throughout his life.[3]

History
Main article: History of alien abduction claims
Paleo-abductions
While "alien abduction" did not achieve widespread attention until the 1960s, there were many similar stories circulating decades earlier. These early abduction-like accounts have been dubbed "paleo-abductions" by UFO researcher Jerome Clark.[13]

In the November 27, 1896 edition of the Stockton, California Daily Mail, Colonel H. G. Shaw claimed he and a friend were harassed by three tall, slender humanoids whose bodies were covered with a fine, downy hair who tried to kidnap the pair.[13]

Rogerson writes that the 1955 publication of Harold T. Wilkins's Flying Saucers Uncensored declared that Karl Hunrath and Wilbur Wilkinson, who had claimed they were contacted by aliens, had disappeared under mysterious circumstances; Wilkins reported speculation that the duo were the victims of "alleged abduction by flying saucers".[15]

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: The Shrike

originally posted by: [post=23644503]BiffJordan[/st]po
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I don't remember if the Hill's claimed to have been probed with some kind of alien implant as other abductees have, regardless of that if people are probed with implants, why haven't they been removed and examined?

I did see a doc online once claiming to have studied an implant but nothing came of it, they found nothing interesting. Since the implant is something so common in abduction stories, why isn't that something we can cling to for legitimacy?

You say you'll have some work up on Monday, I'll read it and try to understand what you've put together.

Not "classical" probing but Betty did claim that a needle was inserted in her navel to test for pregnancy so the aliens must have been pretty stupid since your navel has nothing to do with pregnancy. It's just a remnant of where you were attached to your mother, but it doesn't indicate anything about pregnancy.

"If you stick a needle into a woman's navel, it doesn't go much of anywhere other than into her abdominal muscles and perhaps if you push it deeper in, into the abdominal cavity full of guts, or the diaphragm, but certainly not into her uterus, which is carried much lower in the abdomen. Why would super-powerful, super-intelligent aliens be sticking a needle to test for pregnancy into a basically inactive portion of a female's anatomy? Betty didn't say that the aliens were "experimenting", as in, "poking needles around to see what's in there". She said that it was definitely a "pregnancy test".

Wow, you could really use some more research there bud. 10 years after Betty Hill was reportedly abducted. a medical pregnancy test was developed using a long needle inserted into the naval. If you spent more time on research rather than pure debunking you would be better off.
What is really surprising here is that she described that test 10 years before it even existed. It became obsolete soon after with chemical tests being more practical and efficient. amniocentesis first used needles inserted through the navel, then later through the abdomen as the techniques changed

Research? Anyone that's familiar with this case knows you're only parroting what you've read or heard. You're not even applying any common sense or logic. We're to believe aliens were able to travel throughout our galaxy to visit Earth but were using technology only 10 years more advanced than our own in the 1960's? Technology that was quickly replaced by simpler blood tests?

In amniocentesis, fluid is extracted from the amniotic sac of a pregnant woman using a hollow catheter. The technique was first used by German doctors in the 1880s to relieve pressure on the foetus in a case of excess fluid. Since the 1950s this technique is used in prenatal diagnosis (diagnosis before birth). Cells and chemicals in the amniotic fluid can reveal a lot about the health of the foetus. At first, the fluid was tested to see whether maternal and foetal blood were compatible. Today, the foetal cells are used to perform genetic tests to detect conditions such as Down's Syndrome before the baby is born.
Link

How is a needle through the navel a pregnancy test? According to the definitions I've read, unless I missed something, the test is performed after the woman is pregnant and amniotic fluid surrounding the fetus is drawn from the womb.

I believe this incident to be nothing more than fabrication. Dr. Simon was the psychiatrist who hypnotized both Barney and Betty and thought the second part of the story to be a dream or nightmare:

Regarding the second encounter (the abduction story), he believes it happened only in Betty Hill's dreams and that Barney, upon hearing his wife tell about her dreams repeatedly, finally felt he must have been abducted, too. A kidnapping by space beings, in the psychiatrists opinion, has all the earmarks of a nightmare--its bizarre nature, inconsistencies, etc. And a detailed dream can occur in a flash
PDF Link (page 14 of report - page 16 of PDF)

It seems logical to assume Betty could have been exhibiting a common fear of needles in her nightmare. She first describes a device with wires that was connected to a cluster of needles. One or more of the needles were touched to various parts of her body and she was promised beforehand that it wouldn't hurt. Next, the examiner pulls out a long needle and she was again scared of the pain. When it was inserted into her navel, she felt a sharp pain and the "leader" put his hand over her eyes and the pain went away. Needles? Where's the advanced technology to match this space-faring technologically advanced species? No 3-D imaging like the supposed 3-D star map?

a reply to: james1947

Your dots aren’t even close to what Betty drew.

Mine are a lot closer.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8
It is far more probable that Betty, and a plethora of others were simply trying to make sense out of something that wasa bit too "alien" to their experience.

Like all the reports of "probing", which probably didn't happen quite like the abductee remembers...not at all surprising.

Tell me, how many professional psychologists have described Betty and her experience as YOU do? And, just what are your qualifications? What make you such an expert in this that you can diagnose Betty in such an amateur manner?

I see a great deal more "parroting" out of your camp that mine. You have read some old, outdated, reports by people with little expertise, and a lot of agenda, and even more fear of the unknown.

Perhaps, it is time to let go of the fear and embrace the unknown.

If I took my phone back to 1885, do you think it would be recognized for what it is? Or simply passed by because it wasn't interesting (or working)?

Something important to remember here; abductees are NOT in a normal state of consciousness while they are away, In fact, it is very likely that they are in a state where brain chemistry is controlled, probably by drugs...not unlike Belsomra, (Belsomra controls the levels of Orexin, a neurotransmitter that is involved with consciousness...it is fully capable of rendering One "unconscious" while allowing the retention of higher / fine motor skills...allowing the "sleeper" to perform complex tasks, as if fully awake...and of course have little to no memory afterwards.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Very good! Now, how about the rest of the "stars"...you only account for half!

And, it isn't really about what Betty drew, but rather about what Betty saw...and that was something that contained stars and planets, and "trade / exploration" routes.

Your thing contains none of this, and like I said, only about half the "points" (stars) on Betty's map.

a reply to: james1947

Actually, mathematically, the probability of alien abduction is vastly greater...scores of orders of magnitude.

so mathematically what is the probability that its humans doing the abductions using various methods to make the victims perceive something alien to them?

a reply to: wylekat

we cannot simply take your word Then, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU REFUTING IT SO DAMN HARD.

Not once in Biffs reply were they trying to refute anything.


How do you perceive questions directed towards claims made are refuting instead of attempting to gain more knowledge?


The only way is if the claim is BS and questions posed will only expose the BS so one must jump on the defensive and say exactly what you have to simple questions asked about whats posted.

If I am simply some schizo nut- why is there a certain # of you who, against all reason, come on here and do your absolute level best to try to publicly humiliate me and accuse me of taking drugs or having mental illness?

If you read your words then its no wonder that this idea comes to mind to readers.

a reply to: james1947

Very good! Now, how about the rest of the "stars"...you only account for half!

I was using the ones connect by lines.

DERP!

And, it isn't really about what Betty drew, but rather about what Betty saw.

Suuuuuuure it is. That’s why you spent all that time going on about how accurate your image is, because it’s “about what she saw”.

Your thing contains none of this, and like I said, only about half the "points" (stars) on Betty's map.

Yet it’s STILL more accurate to the one you made. But remember “it’s about what she saw” lol.

AS I said; Here is a link to my evidence.

What you will see is a page with a representation of Betty's map. Each of the stars are "hot spots" you may mouse over to learn the stars name, or click and learn more about the star and it's solar system (if known).

That said; my interpretation satisfies the requirements of; 1) having a very strong match to Betty's map, 2) contains "stars and planets", 3) very accurately depicts "trade and exploration routes".

There are also other links in the menu that will explain how a match was obtained, the real world probabilities of the match, and the selection criteria for the "main stars".

Everything here has become available since 1992 or so when the Hipparcos mission was in operation. None of your other analyses had any of this data available at the time of publishing, thus ALL of this constitutes new knowledge.

All of the data is available from the University of Strasbourg, France. 1)hipparcos data set, 2) SIMBAD database, 3)ExoplanetEU database.

a reply to: james1947

And my interpretation satisfies the requirements of; 1) having a very strong match to Betty's map (stronger than yours, in fact), 2) contains "places in the UK", 3) very accurately depicts "trade routes" too.

What was your point?

originally posted by: InhaleExhale
a reply to: james1947

Actually, mathematically, the probability of alien abduction is vastly greater...scores of orders of magnitude.

so mathematically what is the probability that its humans doing the abductions using various methods to make the victims perceive something alien to them?

Well, actually, that would require speculation on the psychology of Humans. But, logically, it should be very low. Unless of course you can think of a realistic motive for humans to engage in something that serves no purpose, and acquires no new data.

On the other hand, for ET to have such an interest makes perfect sense, just like Humans darting wild animals, studying them, and releasing them back into the wild. ET would do the same.

So, while I can't put a number on whether Humans might do something like that, my guess would be lower than ET.

originally posted by: james1947
Tell me, how many professional psychologists have described Betty and her experience as YOU do? And, just what are your qualifications? What make you such an expert in this that you can diagnose Betty in such an amateur manner?

First off, did you miss: "it seems logical to assume" in my response? No where have I claimed to give an expert opinion. Also, did you miss me quoting and linking Dr. Simon's conclusion of his sessions with Betty and Barney? That is an experts opinion. Of course I know you'll say Simon's conclusion is because he was afraid of ridicule by his peers, but if you've read The Interrupted Journey, you'd see in the appendix in the last section of the book is a recollection of a dream that Betty wrote in her journal: "Dreams that occurred following the sighting of the UFO in the White Mountains on Sept 19-20, 1961" She goes on to write about this dream which happens to be the same dialog she used in her hypnotic session of her abduction. It doesn't take a genius to make the connection between reality and a dream.

Next, Betty's map is made up of both dots and lines and once you start moving points on her map to fit yours, her map no longer becomes relevant. This is your map and Betty's with the lines removed:

Absolutely no shared common points between your map and hers. You didn't just move one dot, you moved every single one of the dots. You try to fill in this inconsistency by playing connect the dots with the lines and saying: look now it's a match! And even then it's still not a match. This only makes you look desperate and foolish.

The map also wasn't drawn during one of her hypnotic sessions, it was drawn on her kitchen table at home in between them. By this point, Betty was heavily involved in researching UFOs and visiting the library, writing to "experts", buying books, and so on. So this map could have had any kind of outside influence.

Let me point out a major problem with your map placing it in a 3-D environment of a galaxy star map. This is Betty's quote during her hypnosis from The Interrupted Journey:

...and he pulled out a map, and he asked me had I ever seen a map like this before. And I walked across the room and I leaned against the table. And I looked at it. And it was a map - it was an oblong map. It wasn't square. It was a lot wider than it was long. And there were all these little dots on it. And they were scattered all over it. Some were little, just pin points. And others were as big as a nickel. And there were these lines, there were on some of the dots, there were curved lines going from one dot to another. And there was one big circle, and it had a lot of lines coming out from it. A lot of lines going to another circle quite close, but not as big....

And he put the map-the map rolled up and he put it back in the space in the wall and closed it"

Do you see anywhere in Betty's description of the map above where she speaks in 3-dimensional terms? Everything she says is 2-dimensional- the map is pulled out from a wall, she views the map on a table, 2-D curved lines represent distance, the map is rolled up, etc. There's nothing described that's fascinating. If she saw a map that looked like a hologram, she would have mentioned it here in some way. The 3rd dimension is added when Marjorie Fish visits her in 1969.

So you've moved all of her dots, tried to make a similar pattern with the lines, used only stars when she says the map shows both stars and planets, placed your map onto of a 3-dimensional rendition of the stars in our galaxy when she drew her map in 2 dimensions. Seems like a lot of wasted effort on your part.

[SNIP]

a reply to: InhaleExhale

Knock off the gaslighting.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8

So you've moved all of her dots, tried to make a similar pattern with the lines, used only stars when she says the map shows both stars and planets, placed your map onto of a 3-dimensional rendition of the stars in our galaxy when she drew her map in 2 dimensions. Seems like a lot of wasted effort on your part.

[SNIP]

So...no, I've moved nothing. Reality did!!!

As I've repeated said, my map is based on the reality that is the Hipparcos mission, Betty, and Ms. Fish did not have such a luxury. I also have advantage of both Simbad, and exoplaneteu.

And, on that note (EXOPLANETEU) I'm going to ask IF you have actually seem my map for what it is? You see, MY MAP, contains stars AND PLANETS...all One needs to do is actually look...and that kind of brings us back to one of my original objections; NONE OF Y'ALL HAVE ACTUALLY LOOKED AT THIS!!!

Your statement that I've moved Betty's points (stars) is kind of laughable as all I've done is "correct" Betty's drawing...she drew that from memory, Ms. Fish put some names to a few stars, I corrected the position of the stars according to modern astrometrics, and found the identities of the remaining stars (the ones Ms. Fish didn't name) . I've even identified the POV (point of view).

I provided some insights into the pattern matching process used here, which more than adequately illustrates the fidelity of the "match".

Yet still, y'all try to bring up irrelevant aspects, trying to make them, somehow, affect the astrometrics and the probabilities...you are aware that there is no story about Betty that can affect astrometrics, or probability; in terms of my old haunt, Electrical Engineering, Betty is sufficiently decoupled from the physics of the map.

So, how about y'all, stick to the core sciences; Computer science, Astrophysics, astronomy, and of course, good ole Mathematics. IF y'all can do this you will find it much easier to get a grip on reality.

a reply to: james1947

Well, actually, that would require speculation on the psychology of Humans.

much less speculation than speculating on the psychology of aliens we have never met or examined I would say.

But, logically, it should be very low.

No it wouldn't,

its extremely high due to humans existing and abducting one another since the dawn of time.


However, since you like to bring math into it please show or try to explain why it would be low.


We know humans exist and abduct one another


we know mind altering drugs exist that can give effects of one communicating with entities from else where.


on the other hand there is very little evidence, none direct and only speculation that aliens are visiting earth.


So please show how its more probable that its aliens rather than humans.

Unless of course you can think of a realistic motive for humans to engage in something that serves no purpose, and acquires no new data.

Aliens would abduct humans and perform experiments on them like so many claim,

this is obviously to gain a knowledge of human biology and psychology.


If human experimentation is illegal without a persons consent and certain ideas about how to manipulate the mind or body are too extreme and wild and would be torturous for a person to go through is something a person wouldn't allow.

How does a powerful entity that wishes to gain this knowledge do so then?


Use aliens as a cover to hide the human experimentation being done by our own.

On the other hand, for ET to have such an interest makes perfect sense, just like Humans darting wild animals, studying them, and releasing them back into the wild. ET would do the same.

Just like humans could do to other humans, no need for aliens.

So, while I can't put a number on whether Humans might do something like that, my guess would be lower than ET.

well then I say your blabbing on about probability to be absolute nonsense then.

for the simple reason

that

1- humans exist and abduct one another and have done some rather nasty experimenting on each other until it made illegal so now it must be done in the shadows.

2 - intelligent aliens visiting earth is speculation and interpretation of varying bits of info.

originally posted by: wylekat
a reply to: InhaleExhale

Knock off the gaslighting.

gas-lighting or simple observation?


I couldn't care less if you are or are not sane.


I see you completely ignored the first part of my reply.

Hmmmmm, I wonder if ignoring the questions is indicating what was suggested?


easily perceived as such.

You were yelling about the poster REFUTING IT SO HARD then banging on about how you get called crazy and what not.

Yes, its no wonder as I said if you read what you post.

Yelling that someone is refuting something hard when there was no such thing does make you look crazy.

Speaking as someone who has been pleasantly taken on a voyage in exchange for DNA,

I just hope they continue, because what's out there is amazing. It really puts life into perspective when you see even just your local cluster on a cosmic scale

originally posted by: AmmonSeth
Speaking as someone who has been pleasantly taken on a voyage in exchange for DNA,

I just hope they continue, because what's out there is amazing. It really puts life into perspective when you see even just your local cluster on a cosmic scale

Did they ask you....or did they take what they wanted and then make you feel important by letting you out of the pen for a while.