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After watching The Stan Romeneck Story, are there any un-debunkable abduction cases?

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posted on Jul, 30 2018 @ 09:58 AM
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originally posted by: BenutzerUnbekannt

originally posted by: james1947
a reply to: BiffJordan

Sure, how about the Betty Hill case...



Interesting, I just said the opposite. It's just a story made up by a mentally fragile couple.

I forgot about the star map, but it's not evidence in any way shape or form; the 2d data was plucked out of Betty's subconscious but there's no way to prove it was placed there via an alien abduction. Chances are it was sheer coincidence.



"Sheer coincidence"...I'm presuming that you don't know what the probability of "sheer coincidence" is. So , here, please allow me to show you...

Betty's map ultimately contains 25 stars, all of which must be within 33 parsec or so from Earth. Within that space there are 2526 stars (according to the Hipparcos mission). Doing the math: that is the first 25 terms of 2526 factorial.

The final result is a probability of 5.84795e-87...so "sheer coincidence" is vanishingly small...virtually impossible!

I know the astrometrics, and the math are beyond many, but, real world science / mathematics kind of speaks for itself.

So, again, the debunk of the overall event has not been made, and can't until the map is explained away.

ETA: What I see in the reports of the Hill case is what amounts to bad data collection and reporting. But, when One considers the era in which this occurred, it should not be too surprising. In that day Man was mostly ignorant of how to collect data on something that leaves little to no verifiable data. The methods of collection were primitive and flawed, thus the report wasn't very helpful, and provided much negativity to the event.

So, the only recourse anyone has is to use reliable, verifiable, science and mathematics...which few have ever done. Oh, by the way, most to all of the stories that want to debunk the map are based on very bad astronomy, mostly because is is very outdated...our understanding of the stars is vastly improved since those days.
edit on 30-7-2018 by james1947 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 30 2018 @ 11:13 AM
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a reply to: james1947

Putting the so-called "star map" aside, the rest of the Hill's story is just that, a story. Who knows why they decided to come up with the whole abduction hoax. People do and say very odd things, and I guess the Hills had wild imaginations and a penchant for telling lies. We can't say why they did it, but it's almost certain they fabricated the whole story.

As for the star map, interesting numbers you present there. Assuming the Hills made this whole episode up, maybe they also fabricated the star map aspect too. Don't ask me how they did it, as I don't know. Is this more likely than an actual alien abduction? Yes it is.

The bottom line is astronomical coincidences are still more likely than alien abductions.

Just on how Betty's 2d rendition was then translated into 3d space, I gather there was rather a lot of approximation involved, ie it wasn't a perfect match - in fact, a less generous star-map maker would've just put Betty's diagram in the trash and given up. My point? Well M.Fish was clearly desperate to make the dots fit and when there's a will there's a way.



posted on Jul, 30 2018 @ 02:05 PM
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originally posted by: BenutzerUnbekannt
a reply to: james1947

Putting the so-called "star map" aside, the rest of the Hill's story is just that, a story. Who knows why they decided to come up with the whole abduction hoax. People do and say very odd things, and I guess the Hills had wild imaginations and a penchant for telling lies. We can't say why they did it, but it's almost certain they fabricated the whole story.


Ahhh, I see; you don't believe in alien abduction. Well, as an old person that has a 60+ year history of such abductions, I do...without reservation. And, while I understand the issues of a general lack of viable data on the event, to dismiss regardless is to ignore what real data there is. Anyway, as my science and engineering influenced method of finding some sort of closure, I tend to actually apply those principals I learned throughout my life.



As for the star map, interesting numbers you present there. Assuming the Hills made this whole episode up, maybe they also fabricated the star map aspect too. Don't ask me how they did it, as I don't know. Is this more likely than an actual alien abduction? Yes it is.

The bottom line is astronomical coincidences are still more likely than alien abductions.


Actually, mathematically, the probability of alien abduction is vastly greater...scores of orders of magnitude.



Just on how Betty's 2d rendition was then translated into 3d space, I gather there was rather a lot of approximation involved, ie it wasn't a perfect match - in fact, a less generous star-map maker would've just put Betty's diagram in the trash and given up. My point? Well M.Fish was clearly desperate to make the dots fit and when there's a will there's a way.


Actually Ms Fish used thread and something like ping-pong balls to build a 3D model of nearby space based on the Gliese star study. It was highly accurate for its time. I've dome a similar thing, except my 3D model uses the hipparcos mission results, and modern computer modeling to build an even more accurate version of Ms. Fish's work. my advantage is that my astrometrics are far more accurate (though missing many very small class M stars).I also have the advantage of using modern computer vision and recognition methods to find / verify 2D templates against 3D images.

So...my point; there is no way Betty Hill and Ms. Fish faked this, nor was it a random event. The "star map" is a crude representation of something Betty saw, and was able to remember.

Please don't allow the primitive data collection methods to influence your common sense judgement.



posted on Jul, 30 2018 @ 04:35 PM
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originally posted by: wylekat
a reply to: one4all

One might find the experience worth giggeling at if you thought it was a dream.

It was a pretty solid experience, both of us witnessed the thing, her dog didn't even care- he had found a tasty spot on the road to lick. Reason I asked was- I had read through abduction experiences, and ours was extremely unusual, especially in that regard. Missing time? Didn't care. Taken aboard? I was making jokes about probably being thrown back off after doing Shatner impressions in the pilot's chair. Not to mention the alien, who turned on the interior lights so we could have a good look.

Seven different groups three of which were humans very much like us.None looked like your picture....it looks like a Paracas skull.

Seems the alien itself doesn't match up to 'known' groups, either. I'd guessed it was in the realm of the weirder ETs, like with the Flatwoods Monster. Also of interest- my wife's eyesight is.. meh. To her to have described this being in the detail I was getting, and well- her 'artistic' imagination is almost non existent as well- so making up something like this is well out of the realm of possibility, as well- PLUS her reaction- "Oh, look. An alien."- she may as well have been describing the weather- it's one of the reasons why I'm fuzzy as to what happened abductionwise, because such sharp, exacting details do escape her attention. Not to mention the ship was 20ish feet up, and away from us. I got a glorious view of the bottom, some of the side, and I could see the wraparound windshield, and some lights inside, but not really an alien, per se. Plus, the exterior lights were giving off (no, I'm not kidding) classic, stereotypical, straight from photoshop and J. J. Abrams lens flares. I even took off my glasses, thinking it was some weird effect- and there they still were. So, seeing pointy head there wasn't happening for me.

Plus, like I said, I was acting like a damn fool as well.

It is SOP with some group that you do not retain memories of your abduction event.....this process clearly doesn't work on all of us.

Or, in some people's cases- I think that whatever they do, you either build up an immunity to it, or they manage to break whatever portion of the brain that they abuse. Then, like a mental sunburn, one ends up sensitive, whether they want to be or not.



The big headed guy is definitely not something I have heard of before...but sounds interesting as hades...because the Antarctic issue is with Paracas skulled people who are littered all over the place....I happen to believe that these races had to have developed technology to put themselves in stacis and your account is the first I have heard of...cool....Remember that anyone flying a Neutral Dimension Craft is considered an Alien but a lot of these races are HUMAN....for all we know ALL races could be related to humans.

I an not sure why some retain their memories...I am immune to caine type drugs they flat out do notjhing for me...maybe this is a clue.



posted on Jul, 30 2018 @ 05:23 PM
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originally posted by: The Shrike

originally posted by: BiffJordan
snip
For me I've always been so enamored with Travis Walton, I love "Fire in the Sky" so much that I want to believe in it. In my Walton research over the years I've found that more or less I believe him. But again I have an emotional attachment to the story and I admit I do want it to be true, so that clouds my judgement. What about you? Is there an abduction story that is un-debunkable?


I don't accept claims of alien abductions and at the top of my list is Travis Walton, he rankles me. Closely followed by the Hills whose own psychiatrist said he didn't believe the abduction claim.

Here are some reliable sources which might help you see Travis Walton in a different light. Read with an open mind.

Travis Walton’s Alien Abduction Lie Detection Test
Michael Shermer
michaelshermer.com...

"Profitable Nightmare of a Very Unreal Kind"
by Jeff Wells (from The Age, Melbourne, Australia, 6 January 1979)
debunker.com...

Monday, February 13, 2012
Travis Walton vs. Philip J. Klass
badufos.blogspot.com...

Larry King Live – Walton UFO abduction case (3/12/1993)


Wednesday, December 23, 2015
Dr. Simon Reveals his Real Thoughts on the Hill "UFO Abduction" Case
badufos.blogspot.com...



So what is your take on it? Do you think all the workers lied. Do you think they all lied to get out of the logging contract?



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 01:15 AM
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originally posted by: Jay-morris
So what is your take on it? Do you think all the workers lied. Do you think they all lied to get out of the logging contract?


My reply came from me, primarily, as one who doesn't accept claims without irrefutable proof. Since Walton's alleged abduction took place in November, 1975, I probably became aware of it in 1976 but cannot recall when I actually did. I read everything about it that was reported. I read pro and con articles and books.

To cut to the chase, because of a lack of any pro-evidence I'd rather accept the explanation given in
Fire in the Sky: A Real UFO Abduction?
The evidence shows that Travis Walton's famous story of having been abducted by aliens probably never happened.
skeptoid.com...



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 01:50 AM
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originally posted by: The Shrike

originally posted by: Jay-morris
So what is your take on it? Do you think all the workers lied. Do you think they all lied to get out of the logging contract?


My reply came from me, primarily, as one who doesn't accept claims without irrefutable proof. Since Walton's alleged abduction took place in November, 1975, I probably became aware of it in 1976 but cannot recall when I actually did. I read everything about it that was reported. I read pro and con articles and books.

To cut to the chase, because of a lack of any pro-evidence I'd rather accept the explanation given in
Fire in the Sky: A Real UFO Abduction?
The evidence shows that Travis Walton's famous story of having been abducted by aliens probably never happened.
skeptoid.com...


Well, the thing that still interests me when it comes to this case, is the fact that not one of them has changed their story.

If they all made up the story to get out of the logging contract, then why did they stick to that story all these years? The contract would not effect the other workers, so they have no reason to carry on the lie.

I could understand if they were all lifelong good friends, but they were not, only mike and Travis. The others have kept out of the limelight, carried on with their lives.

If they all done this for money, then that does not make sense either because of course if one of them wanted to make money, they could turn around and say it was all I hoax. They would get money from interviews, tv etc

So, this part of the case does not make sense, and is something skeptics have overlooked.

Off course, I am not saying the case is real, because you are right, there needs to be more evidence than this, but them sticking to their story is the part that interests me.



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 05:54 AM
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a reply to: james1947

Sorry James - and I respect your experience and your training - but there's still absolutely nothing to the Hill case. It's like a meringue in that it just crumbles to dust when inspected by a rational mind.

Essentially we have a wild claim made by an odd couple and the only evidence is their [notoriously unreliable and fickle] hypnotic regression sessions. That's it. Nothing. Zilcho.

To get back to the OP, and in light of what we've both exchanged on this thread, I can now say with certainty that there's no such thing as an abduction case that cannot be debunked.

(And your closing remark about common sense is hilarious in this context: I'm not seeing a single trace of it in your rambling, grasping and incoherent post, although I mean no disrespect to you personally.)



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 08:15 AM
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originally posted by: BenutzerUnbekannt
a reply to: james1947

Sorry James - and I respect your experience and your training - but there's still absolutely nothing to the Hill case. It's like a meringue in that it just crumbles to dust when inspected by a rational mind.

Essentially we have a wild claim made by an odd couple and the only evidence is their [notoriously unreliable and fickle] hypnotic regression sessions. That's it. Nothing. Zilcho.

To get back to the OP, and in light of what we've both exchanged on this thread, I can now say with certainty that there's no such thing as an abduction case that cannot be debunked.


Just the hypnotic stuff eh? But, you forget the 800lb Gorilla! That being Betty's map. I know you like to discount it, but, it has not been disproven.

So, I'm going to challenge you, or indeed anyone else who has the skills, to disprove Betty's map.

You need to understand that I have done something you, nor indeed anyone else has done, and that is actually LOOK at the map/template Betty left us. I have seen the reality of that scribble, and it is a highly accurate view of near-by stars from a remote location about 122ly from Earth, it is actually a view from orbit of another class G star...very much like Earth's Sun.

Instead of taking someone's "word for it", why not actually take a stroll through Betty's map and learn new things. I've done that and am working on a white paper / presentation, I'll post a link when its ready. How much actual work on this have you done? Or do you merely take someone's word if it supports your uninformed opinion?

Either way is wrong! WE, You, I, need to apply real science and mathematics to all questions ourselves, and not take someone's word.

edit on 31-7-2018 by james1947 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 10:18 AM
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a reply to: james1947

One glaring problem with Betty's map is it was a recollection of something and not the actual map. Let's say you spend five minutes staring at a map of somewhere? Now I'll ask you to draw the map several days later. To be doubly sure, I'll get a hypnotist to regress you too and then we'll have two maps OK?

Do you think the two recollected maps will be exact copies of the original? We can compare the original to your recollected maps and see how accurate they are.

With Betty's map, there is absolutely no way to check if her recollection was accurate. Nobody hypnotised her twice to compare the two either and they should have done.

Hear me out here as I'm not against the Hill's narrative (or character) and not a debunker. There's no way of knowing if Betty had a lucid dream about a map or even if the potential intruders showed her a real map of real places. There's a lot of evidence that hypnotists can affect recollections, but there wasn't a great body of evidence back when Simon was working. Don't get me wrong here, that man was a bloody good psychiatrist and his interview technique was neutral and didn't lead either Betty or Barney (I've heard the tapes). The point I'm making is 'the map' never was great evidence for the reasons I mentioned and others I haven't.



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 11:59 AM
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originally posted by: wylekat
a reply to: BiffJordan

A hint: If they're actively making money and notoriety off of it- it stinks, most likely.



^^
This 24/7



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 12:22 PM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: james1947

One glaring problem with Betty's map is it was a recollection of something and not the actual map. Let's say you spend five minutes staring at a map of somewhere? Now I'll ask you to draw the map several days later. To be doubly sure, I'll get a hypnotist to regress you too and then we'll have two maps OK?


Yes it is a recollection; and I consider that to be a plus! One should not, can not, think of Betty's map as a 100% accurate drawing, it is in fact a representation of the real world, after hypnotic regression; thus, not accurate. What I'm looking at is the "after market" accuracy, and the probability that it can be random (or coincidence), and that is so bloody small that its almost not worth considering.

I would almost like to try your experiment it sounds like a wee bit of fun, and I haven't been hypnotized in nearly 50 years.



With Betty's map, there is absolutely no way to check if her recollection was accurate. Nobody hypnotised her twice to compare the two either and they should have done.

Hear me out here as I'm not against the Hill's narrative (or character) and not a debunker. There's no way of knowing if Betty had a lucid dream about a map or even if the potential intruders showed her a real map of real places. There's a lot of evidence that hypnotists can affect recollections, but there wasn't a great body of evidence back when Simon was working. Don't get me wrong here, that man was a bloody good psychiatrist and his interview technique was neutral and didn't lead either Betty or Barney (I've heard the tapes). The point I'm making is 'the map' never was great evidence for the reasons I mentioned and others I haven't.


Yes, I know, and understand where you are trying to go. However, WHEN the "map" / template becomes something real and non-random...it must be given its due as it has become the "real evidence" you are all looking for.

Perhaps IF the result of a pattern match search failed, or half of the stars were random, but neither is the case. You see, there are problems with the stellar class distribution in the realized (translated) version.

IF the map was truly random, which it NEEDS to be to fit your hypothesis, then it should be mostly "M" class stars...there isn't a single one on the map...even the stars that were not "cherry picked" are ALL K, G, and F class stars (except for one that seems to be a complete mystery...it has little to no astrometrics).

In any case; for all y'alls hypothesis to work, the map MUST be random; IT IS NOT.



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 06:00 PM
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I just found an article that is probably worth reading, and is relevant here
Probabilistic Thinking

Although, I am kind of surprised at the source...



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 07:23 PM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: james1947

One glaring problem with Betty's map is it was a recollection of something and not the actual map. Let's say you spend five minutes staring at a map of somewhere? Now I'll ask you to draw the map several days later. To be doubly sure, I'll get a hypnotist to regress you too and then we'll have two maps OK?

Do you think the two recollected maps will be exact copies of the original? We can compare the original to your recollected maps and see how accurate they are.

With Betty's map, there is absolutely no way to check if her recollection was accurate. Nobody hypnotised her twice to compare the two either and they should have done.

Hear me out here as I'm not against the Hill's narrative (or character) and not a debunker. There's no way of knowing if Betty had a lucid dream about a map or even if the potential intruders showed her a real map of real places. There's a lot of evidence that hypnotists can affect recollections, but there wasn't a great body of evidence back when Simon was working. Don't get me wrong here, that man was a bloody good psychiatrist and his interview technique was neutral and didn't lead either Betty or Barney (I've heard the tapes). The point I'm making is 'the map' never was great evidence for the reasons I mentioned and others I haven't.


I'm surprised that the HIll's have not been written off and still pop-up as if they had a real experience that could be the source for further discussion. The evidence is against the event's reality and toward fantasy. There are numerous articles claiming that the Hills got their details from television programming particularly the Outer Limits. The pro-abduction is favored by young people who don't do in-depth research into the material available on the Web. Nobody wants to accept that Betty, in particular, was an active UFOlogist attending & possibly holding UFO meetings in their home. She probably knew more about current UFO events than members of this forum know about current UFO events. The star map has been more than adequately explained.

Research for crying out loud!



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 08:35 PM
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originally posted by: The Shrike

The star map has been more than adequately explained.

Research for crying out loud!


Yes, please do YOUR OWN research!

Betty's map has never been explained. The articles you have cited talk about some of the stars being binaries, yet while they are, they are typically NOT "close binaries", so that argument is patently false, and to come from an astronomer is nearly shameful, but, if we consider WHEN these statements were made, they become almost tolerable. Then there is the stuff about stellar distance changing with the more accurate Hipparcos mission, that too falls apart when One actually LOOKS at the astrometrics. None of the primary stars are further than 66ly.

Further there are features in Betty's map that are present in the actual stars within 35parsec of Earth. And, of course there is that little matter of the mathematical probabilities of the crude drawing actually having a match in nearby stars.

So...please don't insult everyone's intelligence by insisting that the "map" has been explained.

There are several other features that all speak to this being an actual trade/exploration map.



posted on Jul, 31 2018 @ 08:39 PM
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a reply to: The Shrike

Betty Hill:
- Claimed to see thousands of UFOs and considered herself a UFO beacon.
- Claimed a spacecraft crashed near her town and when the townsfolk gathered around it, she told them to go home the aliens will take care of it. Of course everyone went home. No evidence of this incident- Surprise.
- Claimed to pick up objects from UFOs and had them scientifically analyzed. Of course with zero supporting evidence of this.
- Couldn't be consistent with her story about what the aliens looked like. They went from dark-haired aliens with Jimmy Durante noses to humanoids that spoke with a "foreign accent"
- Had a previous history of seeing UFOs with her sister.
- Claimed to frequently see a "headquarter UFO" and smaller UFOs would fly up to it and get their orders for the night and fly off

Yeah, fruitier than a nutcake and questionable character.
To argue for any part of this story is to argue for the entire story.

Edit: Hey look tank... I mean James1947, research into Betty Hills character!
edit on 31-7-2018 by Ectoplasm8 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2018 @ 09:06 AM
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It has become my opinion, based on empirical observation, and what little outside data is available; that the "character", "personality", education level, and virtually all other personal traits of any individual soever, has absolutely no affect of astrometrics, physics, nor mathematics.

I understand the issues some have with Betty Hill, but, realistically, the person of Betty Hill has absolutely no affect on the analysis of her map. Thus, I am taking the "map" as a stand-alone object, and analyzing it on its own merits.

Please understand, that Betty was only a conduit, regardless of how "poor" you might think she was, she still did something quite remarkable.

So...the challenge still remains; prove the map is NOT a representation of real world stars viewed from a location other than Earth. When you can do that, then you will have properly disproven Betty Hill, and her whole mess.

Until then, the fact that Betty was a UFO nut, is quite irrelevant.



posted on Aug, 1 2018 @ 07:59 PM
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Based on the years I've dabbled in this topic I have never seen any proof of anything. I've read plenty of forum members personal accounts, plenty of "official looking government documents", I've seen more than enough scary creepy amateur internet videos of testimony or "footage" of UFO's... and nothing has ever been good enough to sell me on any believable truth. There is always a more than likely terrestrial explanation for every scenario I have ever come across. I'd say more often than not out of nothing but pure boredom I've badly WANTED to believe to justify my interest in the topic, but I've never been convinced. What would convince me? I've never seen anything that couldn't be manufactured in a way to provide the desired effect of "they're here".

I mean no offense to anyone who "claims to be abducted" but the likely hood that they were chosen by intergalactic beings traveling millions of light years away simply to use your DNA to further their species because reproductive capabilities have become null for them... I mean come on, how can you believe that? It is much more likely that "abductees", 1st are bored attention seeking compulsive liars, 2nd looking for a way to make money or 3rd are mentally ill or have some kind of personality disorder. Truthfully if the Travis Walton case is the most "credible" of the bunch then we are all just talking about modern folklore, no different than Vampire's and Werewolves. Are they fun to fantasize about? Sure, is there anything "real" about a person who is bitten by a wolf and physically turns into another creature? No. Have you ever herd of the case where a person was bit on the neck while sleeping on vacation in Europe and ended up living for hundreds of years until a bounty hunter impaled a wooden steak through their heart? No.

Even going back to the classics. The paintings of yesteryear that can be interpreted to feature "UFO's" in the sky. They don't take into account religious explanation for their actual meaning. What happened to the Mayans? Did they get sucked into a portal and deported to another universe? Some kind of star gate? No, it was the Spanish who raped and pillaged them into what we call Mexicans. The answer that UFOlogists want to jump to is always Aliens, and it's always wrong. I have proof of that, and my proof is the cold hard history of there never ever being and kind of legit proof of intelligent life beyond Earth. Suspicions? Yes. Fictions? Yes. Truths and facts, no never.

Year after year another story comes, someone creates a buzz worthy scenario that gets the esoteric portion of the internet all giddy and excited but time after time that person is found out and crushed with the truth.

Truly I didn't expect anyone to even make much of this thread, I appreciate those who put their input out there. But in the end there is no un-debunkable alien abduction story because there is nobody beyond criminals who abduct people. I'm a big time Science fan, and an even bigger Science Fiction fan. In my logical mind I think there has to be intelligent life out there just because why would our race be the only one in an ever expanding infinite undiscovered universe? What would be undebunkable evidence to me? I'd have to see it to believe it. Or that day where NASA holds a press conference and delivers unmistakable footage that blows my mind. The day where I look out my window and see "them hovering over NYC"... but even if some of the abductions are real as depicted, it's still more likely to be a government operation than intergalactic beings who traveled millions of light years for YOUR DNA.



posted on Aug, 1 2018 @ 08:54 PM
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originally posted by: BiffJordan
Based on the years I've dabbled in this topic I have never seen any proof of anything. I've read plenty of forum members personal accounts, plenty of "official looking government documents", I've seen more than enough scary creepy amateur internet videos of testimony or "footage" of UFO's... and nothing has ever been good enough to sell me on any believable truth. There is always a more than likely terrestrial explanation for every scenario I have ever come across. I'd say more often than not out of nothing but pure boredom I've badly WANTED to believe to justify my interest in the topic, but I've never been convinced. What would convince me? I've never seen anything that couldn't be manufactured in a way to provide the desired effect of "they're here".

I mean no offense to anyone who "claims to be abducted" but the likely hood that they were chosen by intergalactic beings traveling millions of light years away simply to use your DNA to further their species because reproductive capabilities have become null for them... I mean come on, how can you believe that? It is much more likely that "abductees", 1st are bored attention seeking compulsive liars, 2nd looking for a way to make money or 3rd are mentally ill or have some kind of personality disorder. Truthfully if the Travis Walton case is the most "credible" of the bunch then we are all just talking about modern folklore, no different than Vampire's and Werewolves. Are they fun to fantasize about? Sure, is there anything "real" about a person who is bitten by a wolf and physically turns into another creature? No. Have you ever herd of the case where a person was bit on the neck while sleeping on vacation in Europe and ended up living for hundreds of years until a bounty hunter impaled a wooden steak through their heart? No.

Even going back to the classics. The paintings of yesteryear that can be interpreted to feature "UFO's" in the sky. They don't take into account religious explanation for their actual meaning. What happened to the Mayans? Did they get sucked into a portal and deported to another universe? Some kind of star gate? No, it was the Spanish who raped and pillaged them into what we call Mexicans. The answer that UFOlogists want to jump to is always Aliens, and it's always wrong. I have proof of that, and my proof is the cold hard history of there never ever being and kind of legit proof of intelligent life beyond Earth. Suspicions? Yes. Fictions? Yes. Truths and facts, no never.

Year after year another story comes, someone creates a buzz worthy scenario that gets the esoteric portion of the internet all giddy and excited but time after time that person is found out and crushed with the truth.

Truly I didn't expect anyone to even make much of this thread, I appreciate those who put their input out there. But in the end there is no un-debunkable alien abduction story because there is nobody beyond criminals who abduct people. I'm a big time Science fan, and an even bigger Science Fiction fan. In my logical mind I think there has to be intelligent life out there just because why would our race be the only one in an ever expanding infinite undiscovered universe? What would be undebunkable evidence to me? I'd have to see it to believe it. Or that day where NASA holds a press conference and delivers unmistakable footage that blows my mind. The day where I look out my window and see "them hovering over NYC"... but even if some of the abductions are real as depicted, it's still more likely to be a government operation than intergalactic beings who traveled millions of light years for YOUR DNA.


Whew! Yours has to be the most intelligent comments to ever appear on this forum. You really told it like it is. And your reply applies to almost every thread appearing here. You make me think why I bother with this forum. If it wasn't for the once in a (long!) while thread that offers constructive dialogue I wouldn't bother. Years ago it used to be a better forum with interesting threads that kept one busy thinking and researching. Now, the crowd seems to be younger and lazier. Almost everybody posts boring, repeating threads about boring subjects and questionable "celebrities" such as DeLonge, Greer, boring disclosure, etc.

However, my logical mind cannot conceive of any other form of life besides humans. Which automatically brings up what or who would one find inside a UFO. Are there beings inside them? If UFOs are not remote controlled vehicles, what would possible beings look like? And because UFOs are not uniform but come in all sizes and shapes, some being downright bizarre, are their origins from one location or multi-races from multi-locations. Where do UFOs go when they're not overhead? Is the consideration of dimensional beings a whacko theory?

That's what I think about. A total mystery which I don't think will be solved before my time is up possibly anywhere from 5 to 20 years as my mom lived to 100 and I and my siblings are old people.



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 03:52 AM
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a reply to: The Shrike

I differ slightly from you in the way I view the Hills. At no point in the book, or in Simon's analysis, are they represented as fraudulent or mischievous. The material from the hypnosis sessions was arguably drawn from their subconscious rather than knowingly taking it from the Outer Limits. Even then, it's not a 100% fact that the imagery was taken from the TV show; it's persuasive rather than conclusive. Believe me (or not), I've read widely on the subject and personally feel the confidence of some skeptics is ambitious.



The pro-abduction is favored by young people who don't do in-depth research into the material available on the Web. Nobody wants to accept that Betty, in particular, was an active UFOlogist attending & possibly holding UFO meetings in their home.


It's reasonable to defer conclusion without supporting one or other explanation. Moreover, there may be other explanations rather than yes/no abductee case. It's a little bit late either way with most of those involved having died long ago.

Betty's subsequent UFO interest didn't undermine her credibility, in my opinion, and neither did it add to it - it confused her credibility. Millions of people were enthralled by 'saucer madness' at the time and it was hard not have any awareness of the subject. It was in the tabloids, as well as TIME, so nobody was blind to the popularity and curiosity. Whether the 'abduction' was real or not, it was a reality in the minds of the Hills once their hypnosis had taken place. In that significant context, it's reasonable that Betty would have her doubts removed and the friendliness of her encounter sealed her belief in charitable, peaceful visitors.

I think she became a little crazy and scatty, but, by all accounts, kind and harmless. She went a little far for my tastes and into the realms of zealous believer.

It was a clear contrast to poor Barney whose own regressions sounded like an existential nightmare - he screamed at the recollection of being dragged away and it makes my skin prickle to hear it. Whether it was all a subconscious construct and folie a deus, or not, the psychological effect on Barney was traumatic. Crazy times.



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