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Ice crystals? Debris? A visual rebuttal

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posted on Jul, 26 2018 @ 10:53 PM
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Since the 1990s beginning on the then nascent UFO forums a battle began between individuals who claimed that what was being videographed by shuttle astronauts or static cameras mounted on various shuttle locations was ice crystals or debris that is claimed to fly along with the shuttle. A dirty space around the spacecraft. UFO believers and accepters (non-believers) preferred to think that the white "orbs" were alien craft, maybe not 100% but the majority. I included myself in that for reasons I will not go into. It stayed that way until it came to a head with STS-80 in 1996. The battle lines were drawn and I manned a loud gun in the forums with Jim Oberg becoming my friendly and instructive opponent and tempered by Dr Jack Kasher, Ph.D. He had a clear mind.

Then came STS-175 (actually all shuttle videos before and after) with the infamous tether incident where Americans taxpayers lost $100 million. Just imagine how many schools and/or hospitals could have built and throw in all the billions that were also lost on failures. NASA should be shut down before Uncle Sam files for bankruptcy!

In another thread not connected with STS-175 but it has become part of the conversation, Jim and I are still at it. There is no way that I accept the "airy disks" and other circles being ice crystals or debris. So towards that end I've created this visual thread to show that the ice crystals/debris explanation doesn't fly! The photos do not show a mass display as on STS-175, that some objects that are videotaped by American and Russian astro/cosmonauts are far away and they are zoomed in. You don't zoom in on nearby ice crystals or debris and it doesn't make sense to do so. The 3 photos by a Russian cosmonaut show the tiny white object being found and tracked for over 1 minute with zoom going in and out. One photo shows the object over the earth and above the clouds. It's amazing that the cosmonaut zoomed out and you don't see the object but he zooms in into the space and finds it again! Excellent shooting! Of course all of the frames are from videos and the visual tracking by the cosmonaut is astounding.

To the critics, please offer constructive criticism and don't get personal. What you see is what you get.
Photo 1
Two objects enter from left center. They don't angle up as claimed but the angle is due to the lens zooming in. But before they enter and as they enter there are objects on the right side zooming by above earth. Ice crystals/debris? You decide.


Photo 2
2 astronauts working in space above the shuttle (STS-64?). Control voice: "Looks like you got an object ...(unintelligible) look out there" (a white object appears from behind the right astronaut's back pack, moving away. Astronaut replies "I don't know what you're talking about". Control voice: "Never mind". 2nd astronaut: "Am I missing something? I don't see anything". Control voice: "It's about your 10 o'clock - 11 o'clock, moving away. Don't worry about it, don't worry about it". Main (?) Control: "Discovery, we're sending you and order to stay vector". Ice crystals/debris? You decide.


Photos 3, 4, 5
Source unknown for sure but I think it's from MIR. First a small white object is seen at a vast distance above earth (3) and zoomed in (4), zoomed out and tracked, found and zoomed in again. You can tell it's traveling at thousands of mph above the earth by the clouds. Starts at 1:13:21 and ends at 1:14:44 = over 1 minute. The Russian astronaut does an incredible tracking zooming out until it's no longer seen and zooms back in with the object almost centered and zooms in further. It's difficult to see the distant white object but in the video it's plainly visible. Ice crystals/debris? You decide.

Object to the left of UFOTV




Photo 6
Ice crystals come to a stop one at a time and form an incomplete circle. Ice crystals/debris with brakes? You decide.


Photos 7 & 8
Russian footage
ISS on a Russian control room large screen showing a bright object "below" ISIS. Many more drifting objects drift in from various directions, some are zoomed in. No mass of "airy disks". Ice crystals/debris? You decide.


Photo 9
Shuttle wide angle showing the earth and white objects near the bottom edge of earth. Ice crystals/debris? You decide.


Photo 10
Shuttle camera zoomed in towards white objects which are obviously distant and couldn't be nearby ice crystals or debris. Ice crystals/debris? You decide.


Photo 11
Shuttle cargo bay rim out of focus while camera continues to zoom out from "ice crystals/debris". No visible ice crystals/debris? You decide.


Photo 12
More of the shuttle cargo bay rim back in focus. No ice crystals/debris? You decide.


Guido Negri
Newly appointed director of SETI Golden Grove Radio Telescope Facility, Perth, Western Australia, after being shown the tether incident: "We are not children..."


edit on 26-7-2018 by The Shrike because: To add content

edit on 26-7-2018 by The Shrike because: To add content

edit on 26-7-2018 by The Shrike because: To add content

edit on 26-7-2018 by The Shrike because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 26 2018 @ 11:06 PM
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Thanks for the effort, it's always valuable to sharpen one's own arguments. I'm off on personal stuff for a few days but will pop in from time to time.

Just curious, does this 'can't-be-ice argument also apply to the STS-48 zig-zagger? Here's my report on that bizarre video, where did I get it wrong?


The full array of the overwhelming evidence for the prosaic explanation [which a panel of NASA experts first came up with, not me] and the refutation of Kasher’s and Carlotto’s half-baked complaints is all on my home page here –
www.jamesoberg.com...



posted on Jul, 26 2018 @ 11:08 PM
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The other fundamental issue here, Shrike, is your insistence that any contrary testimony by the actual on-scene witnesses, the astronauts, should be disregarded because they are obviously being compelled to lie. Is that really your assertion?



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 12:03 AM
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OK. Here's my two cents worth.

1. DEFINITELY NOT ICE CRYSTALS
2. DEFINITELY NOT ICE CRYSTALS
3. DEFINITELY NOT ICE CRYSTALS

OK. I get the whole space thing. but space thing included, we still have the laws of physics to respect when coming to a conclusion. Now, I may be stupid on most things, but ice crystals floating in space do not have a mind of their own. Nor do they have brakes, nor do they change direction at will, nor do they flash and nor do they form formations and perform movements whilst in formation.

I dare anyone to tell me otherwise and I'd still call bollox.

IT SIMPLY CAN'T AND DOES NOT HAPPEN. END OF.

Cheers



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 12:03 AM
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originally posted by: JimOberg
Thanks for the effort, it's always valuable to sharpen one's own arguments. I'm off on personal stuff for a few days but will pop in from time to time.

Just curious, does this 'can't-be-ice argument also apply to the STS-48 zig-zagger? Here's my report on that bizarre video, where did I get it wrong?


The full array of the overwhelming evidence for the prosaic explanation [which a panel of NASA experts first came up with, not me] and the refutation of Kasher’s and Carlotto’s half-baked complaints is all on my home page here –
www.jamesoberg.com...




What I see, for the umpteenth time, is primarily the earth. With white "circular" forms entering the scene from various locations and drifting. The zig-zagger appears and starts to drift towards its date with destiny. A flash is seen and the zig-zagger angles away and as it does a trail is seen seemingly aimed towards the zig-zagger. You say the flash was caused by an attitude thruster firing and the force of the expended energy pushed the ice crystal away.

My problem with that explanation. The zagger was not the first or the only one on the scene, there are more. Some static ones and some appearing and slowly drifting in different directions. The thruster explanation may be valid but I always expect a reaction to an action and I don't see the shuttle budge. Additionally, how selective is the thruster that it affects only one ice crystal and none of the others are affected and keep on drifting while new ones appear. And what about that trail that seems to generate from earth and is headed to where the zagger was before it zagged? Some "pundits" claim a rail gun or some sophisticated weapon was used from somewhere in Australia but I don't have an opinion about that but I do employ a curiosity. To me the zagger and all of the white drifting objects are nowhere near the shuttle. If they were they would be out of focus. Nah, let it rest as I just can't agree with you.

On another case, I found this STS-48-like video. Again, there's a flash, angled trajectory but, again, not all of the white forms are affected, etc.



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 12:06 AM
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SNF... appreciate the thread..



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 12:07 AM
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a reply to: JimOberg

Told to lie?

It's my assumption that yes, they are told to lie. That can be proven by STS-64 clip.

An obvious discredit by the trained astronaut "I don't know what you are on about" is quite simply BS.

It that situation (and lord knows I've been in some situations) you'd be hyper aware. Anything moving around, near you would be extremely concerning.



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 12:11 AM
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OK, what about these little fella's?




posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 12:19 AM
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originally posted by: JimOberg
The other fundamental issue here, Shrike, is your insistence that any contrary testimony by the actual on-scene witnesses, the astronauts, should be disregarded because they are obviously being compelled to lie. Is that really your assertion?


You say actual on-scene witnesses. Aren't the astronauts always engaged on various activities instead of just looking out the windows. And why when the astronauts working outside above the cargo bay don't the videos show ice crystals/debris visible all around. The areas of the shuttle are always clean, free of anything that can be called ice crystals or debris.

Anyway, you're putting words in my mouth for nowhere on the Internet can you read anything written by me that says astronauts are compelled to lie or that I challenge their word for I don't speak astronaut-ese. Their testimony should not be disregarded but it is open to meaning and can be questioned. Experts have been known to be wrong. Others have said non-complimentary opinions but not me. From what I read astronauts may not always say it like it is, or they clam up because of NASA's requirements. But, again, I've never claimed anyone in NASA was compelled to lie. The only thing I assert is that I'm a clear thinker and not beholden to anyone's opinion or point of view. When I speak I speak for myself, no blanket statements.



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 12:31 AM
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Yeah, because astronauts never lie or look uncomfortable being asked to lie do they.........ahem....




posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 01:22 AM
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a reply to: The Shrike

The STS-175 tether footage took my breath away the first time I saw it. It looked like space was teeming with life so I sat and watched it with synapses firing and a sense of wonder roaring. A second viewing had a subtly different result and by the third or fourth it dawned that this wasn't 'life' and certainly not intelligent life. The subsequent explanations about ice crystals and particles of debris made more sense to me than the idea of some type of eukaryotes drifting around space.

A lot of people were stuck on the idea of a swarming mass of flying saucers and others thought they saw life-forms with the curiosity of nosy dogs. They all look like particles/debris to me and I find my mind can't feel the sense of wonder it did when the videos were released by Martyn Stubbs or polished up by LunaCognita et al.

People don't tend to click links anymore and others are scared a visit to Jim's website will put them on a list so I've taken the liberty of snipping two pages. The pages are helpful in giving witness testimony from NASA bods.



It'll be interesting to see how fresher minds relate to the numerous NASA videos and the moving objects within.



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 01:40 AM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: The Shrike

The STS-175 tether footage took my breath away the first time I saw it. It looked like space was teeming with life so I sat and watched it with synapses firing and a sense of wonder roaring. A second viewing had a subtly different result and by the third or fourth it dawned that this wasn't 'life' and certainly not intelligent life. The subsequent explanations about ice crystals and particles of debris made more sense to me than the idea of some type of eukaryotes drifting around space.

A lot of people were stuck on the idea of a swarming mass of flying saucers and others thought they saw life-forms with the curiosity of nosy dogs. They all look like particles/debris to me and I find my mind can't feel the sense of wonder it did when the videos were released by Martyn Stubbs or polished up by LunaCognita et al.

People don't tend to click links anymore and others are scared a visit to Jim's website will put them on a list so I've taken the liberty of snipping two pages. The pages are helpful in giving witness testimony from NASA bods.



It'll be interesting to see how fresher minds relate to the numerous NASA videos and the moving objects within.




What I've never done with the tether footage is give a name to what is seen massing around the tether. I could never go out on a limb when I don't know what I'm seeing. But I do feel comfortable with myself not accepting the ice crystals/debris explanation because I do have a basic knowledge of photography (since 1955, and I helped my brother-in-law, a retired award-winning professional photographer. And in my thread dealing with the visual rebuttal against ice crystals/debris I give a good indication that NASA astronauts did not zoom in on said items. Whatever those objects are, to me they'll never be ice crystals/debris. The tether was over 80 miles away. Nothing near the shuttle or in the vicinity should be seen.

I've been visiting Jim's website since the beginning of time. I learn a lot, I disagree with some, and most of it is over my head.



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 02:22 AM
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a reply to: The Shrike

Each to their own.


For me, they're particles. Ground staff and astronauts have maintained they're particles (when asked) and I can't think of a good reason why they'd say that if new lifeforms had been discovered. We've had 536 people in space and none of them have chosen to say otherwise.

What I'm trying to say is we can look at these videos with more than our eyes. We can weigh them up using more than visuals or by referencing those who were involved. I consider myself a sceptical 'believer' so it isn't like I'm a debunker type or averse to accepting the reality of unidentified objects. Nevertheless, I hope fresh eyes and minds get a kick out of the NASA footage because it's good for the soul imo.



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 06:44 AM
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a reply to: The Shrike

" The thruster explanation may be valid but I always expect a reaction to an action and I don't see the shuttle budge."

Then my report wasn't clear enough. Given the size of the thruster and the mass of the shuttle, the angular effect was very small but did appear on the strip charts with telemetry of the actual orientation. Can you find the page in my report which explicitly addresses this old long-debunked issue? I will try harder, but you have to, too.



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 10:24 AM
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originally posted by: CaptainBeno
OK. Here's my two cents worth.

1. DEFINITELY NOT ICE CRYSTALS
2. DEFINITELY NOT ICE CRYSTALS
3. DEFINITELY NOT ICE CRYSTALS

OK. I get the whole space thing. but space thing included, we still have the laws of physics to respect when coming to a conclusion. Now, I may be stupid on most things, but ice crystals floating in space do not have a mind of their own. Nor do they have brakes, nor do they change direction at will, nor do they flash and nor do they form formations and perform movements whilst in formation.

I dare anyone to tell me otherwise and I'd still call bollox.

IT SIMPLY CAN'T AND DOES NOT HAPPEN. END OF.

Cheers


There's some venting of gasses on the shuttle and ISS and a lot of little invisible puffs from the Reaction Control System (RCS) thrusters keeping the Shuttle and ISS in the proper orientation.

The ice and/or debris can by hit by, or move into the path of, these vented gasses and small puffs of thrust from the RCS thrusters and change course.


edit on 27/7/2018 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 11:22 AM
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They are small maneuverable satellites that are released by the station. There is an old thread on ATS that showed something that we were not supposed to see and I hope someone here has it or can find it and post a link. Just one more smoking gun thread that has disappeared into the insanely huge archives.



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 11:25 AM
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a reply to: The Shrike

Solar Warden?



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 11:35 AM
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originally posted by: CaptainBeno
Yeah, because astronauts never lie or look uncomfortable being asked to lie do they.........ahem....



I'm thinking he didn't see stars from where he was at, I don't necessarily take it to mean he was on the moon's surface



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 12:12 PM
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originally posted by: bluemooone2
They are small maneuverable satellites that are released by the station. There is an old thread on ATS that showed something that we were not supposed to see and I hope someone here has it or can find it and post a link. Just one more smoking gun thread that has disappeared into the insanely huge archives.


You might be thinking of this thread (linked below). The object the OP of the linked post called a UFO turned out to be (as you mention) a small craft that the shuttle released that had a camera on it. However, it wasn't a secret.

The thread claims it was leaked footage from a 2011 shuttle mission (recent at the time this thread was made) of a UFO. However, all of what was written in the OP that thread turned out to ne wrong. (1) It wasn't a UFO -- it was an autonomous camera made by NASA. (2) It wasn't a "leaked" video -- it was a video that was in the public domain, and was public at the time it was made. And (3) it wasn't "new" at the time the thread was made -- it was more than 10 years old at the time.

Anyway, here is the thread from 2011 I'm talking about, and maybe (or maybe not) the one about which you are referring:
www.abovetopsecret.com...


edit on 27/7/2018 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2018 @ 03:21 PM
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a reply to: The Shrike

SNF...nice effort! I posted on another thread, back in June, that the objects swarming around the broken tether from STS-75, were nothing more than an optical illusion. Please note, I'm not implying that all strange objects, seen on NASA footage, or by astronauts, are just ice crystals, or space junk. However, I do believe that the following video clip explains that the "tether footage" shows nothing more than zoomed out-of-focus spherical shaped blurs or distortions, mimicking the camera lens parabolic mirror. What's your opinion on this?





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