The foolishness of the "You're only supporting XYZ because Trump proposed it" narrative

I see this often on ATS and for some it may have a basis of factuality to it, but for many it is total BS. Take, for example, the tariffs issue. This was from my own thread, 9.5 years ago... long before there was any prominent Republican championing tariffs.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

tep 1: Repeal NAFTA, institute stiff taxes & tariffs on imported goods and, especially, on outsourced labor from US-based compnaies, withdraw the United States from the World Trade Organization, institute tax credits & cuts for corporations & small businesses based on percentages of US citizens employed. These tax credits would be weighted to provide greater incentive to employ US citizens in all position levels, from cimple laborer all the way up to managerial roles. Use a 50% baseline, meaning if a company is headquartered in the USA, and they employ 50% American workforce, they would pay the baseline tax rate, not being eligible for any credits or cuts. Conversely, if they employ less than 50%, their tax rates would go up proportionately to whatever percentage under 50% they are at.

Read the rest and you'll find a great deal of what I'm cheering today is stuff I was calling for immediately after the 2008 financial crash.

My positions have gotten a bit more conservative since that post, particularly in regards to my souring on immigration and all outsourced labor, but the underlying principles have remained steady. Global free trade is a neocon and neoliberal mutual interest, AKA, an establishment Republican and establishment Democrat joint venture. Any politician who embraces it wholly is NOT a conservative, they're an establishment stooge.

For years we've heard criticisms on both sides about "blindly following whatever the party says" and how evil it is, now we're seeing voters supporting and agreeing with an individual's ideas and ideals and anyone who disagrees from within that individual's party is used as a weaponized dissention "Oh, look! Even So and so, the Republican now says Trump is wrong." And? Isn't that showing freedom of thought, separated from partisan "loyalty" on the part of Trump and his supporters? Isn't that what everyone and their dog (disingenuously) cajoled American about not doing for the past 20 years?

So especially where those of us with an actual history of recorded statements and ideas are concerned, before you start throwing out the stupid as hell "you're only supporting it because Trump" bullsnip claims, do at least the minimum amount of research first. Trump came along and promised exactly what a lot of us were calling for and he's presently delivering on a number of those promises. It's sort of how politics is supposed to work... campaign promises based on the wants of the people, campaign promises then fulfilled... I realize many Americans are simply used to politicians promising the moon, failing to deliver, and then moving on to the next election cycle, but please don't let sour grapes over having someone in office who is actually doing what we elected him to do make you oblivious to history and the fact that there are Trump supporters who were championing these ideas long before Trump appeared on the scene.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Its totally amazing how some people dont understand how deep in the hole we are as a country and dont realize that their hands are going to get dirty climbing out.

Guess what, it going to hurt too.

Global free trade would be nice if it actually was free trade, but in order for that to happen, we'd need something like a either Global government -or- a Global free market economy.

There's no way in hell I want the first, and there's no way in hell the many little dictatorships of the world would allow the second, so there won't be Global Free Trade anytime soon.

a reply to: Bluntone22

The worst part is we could have enacted all of this in 2009 and we'd be through it all now, almost certainly in far better shape than we currently are and with about the same degree of flop sweat as we saw under Obama's anemic "recovery" slow rolling train wreck.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

It's an endless loop. Ask what about NAFTA was good for the average American Worker and you get silence.

Ask why having millions of low skilled workers enter our workforce, Illegally mind you, is somehow good for the average American Worker and you get silience.

Ask why high taxes are better for the Average American than lower taxes and you get some platitudes at least (Don't you like roads fixed and Firefighters), but no real rebuttal. We had those with lower taxes, what changed?

Ask what was or would be so good about the TPP and you get gobbledegook that sounds like NAFTA on Steroids, like that's a good arguement.

Healthcare is a mess, Obamacare was an attempt, it wasn't the solution. Now what do we try?

The United States has the world's largest trade deficit. It's been that way since 1975. The deficit in goods and services was $566 billion in 2017. How do we fix that? Again, Silence from the Left side of the aisle.

Let's not even talk about the National Debt as both Parties have their heads up their asses about that.

But this is all Trumps fault in 2 years.

Give me a break.

I think, that the op is correct and incorrect in his statement and standings.

While some things, I think that the OP is correct that many people have thought and believed some ideas long before Trump took center stage and was president.

However, there are other ideas that are showing up, that shows the very opposite, where people are supporting such ideas, all due to Trump, and falling in line behind the man. So I would say it is a combination of both, where some of these things were present, and those not spoken, were done so, as that was the norm.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

Such as?

a reply to: ketsuko

I think you protest too much.

Ever hear of US dumping?

www.eldis.org...

U.S. dumping on world agricultural markets:

And then of course there is the TPP, that cedes other countries sovereignty to US corporate interests.
Are the EU and Australia some of those petty dictatorships you were thinking of?


www.abc.net.au...

here is mention of a "right to regulate" in the preamble of the whole agreement, but this is not legally enforceable. In the investment chapter itself, a provision indicates that parties can maintain and enforce environmental and health measures that are "otherwise consistent" with the agreement. Translation: environmental and health measures (other than those related to tobacco control) can still be challenged under ISDS.

Then there are the 'safeguards', also meant to prevent challenges to public policy - are they 'robust', as argued by DFAT? Since the last leak of the investment chapter, the TPP parties have added further clarifying language to one of the most contentious provisions on the so-called 'minimum standard of treatment'. This is likely a result of both continued public pressure, and tribunal decisions in cases like Bilcon v Canada that demonstrate that the safeguards in existing agreements have proven insufficient. However, while the additional language may plug some holes, there is no guarantee that creative lawyers won't open up new ones.

This is because the parties have chosen to continue with the US practice of linking the standard to 'customary international law' and have thus left it relatively open to interpretation. This is something that Europe has rejected in favour of "a clear, closed text which defines precisely the content of the standard without leaving unwelcome discretion to arbitrators".

Can anyone give me a good reason to import more stuff than we export ?

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

We aren't in the TPP are we?

However, it's interesting that your argument seems to be that other countries can't have free trade because they have to protect themselves from our trade output. However, everyone cries foul when we erect measures to protect our own from the trade outputs of other nations.

In short, I simply explained why free trade doesn't work and won't work and why there isn't free trade despite the pretty labels people throw out to describe trade. If other nations are going to enact protectionary measures, then we get to. Plain as that.

a reply to: ketsuko

We aren't in the TPP are we?

Nope.

Tpp was killed just like Roseannes television career.

If someone never says Trump is right, or more importantly Trump WAS right on an issue. I personally stopped paying attention to that person. Throwing Trump spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks.

I do respect the people who were anti tariffs before Trump and anti tariffs during Trump. That's a good political break. We didn't see many people do that with Obama.

The more people that throw Trump Spaghetti, the more I want to give Trump and tariffs a chance, because the people yelling have been wrong about pretty much everything Trump has done. Basically people trying to justify their hate for Trump , so it's starting to pull me into the direction of, this might actually work.

It's not blind loyalty to Trump, it's more of I am aligning myself against the illogical, crazy, hate spewing people that are against Trump.

Take the Tariff Issue

www.cnbc.com...

President Donald Trump on Wednesday announced that he had secured concessions from Europe, averting a potential trade war.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average popped Wednesday afternoon, rising more than half a percent on the news.
The Europeans agreed to lower industrial tariffs and import more U.S. soybeans.

It's like he is way way smarter then all of the people that hate him. He keeps winning, so america keeps winning, and the people against him are to smart to be wrong, especially all of these times, so they get madder and madder....

a reply to: burdman30ott6
I remember my grandfather talking to me when I was a kid, and telling me how important manufacturing was. He was an engineer for GE, but he had a good mind for politics in general, before Dementia got a hold of him. Then years later, when I was more concerned with my family and business, I remember hearing the smart older folks taking about how the USA doesn't "make" anything anymore. And you start to look around, everything is "made in X", and X wasn't USA. Now we look at the towns and empty buildings all over and realize that a really large portion of the manufacturing left.

Maybe the way Trump is going about it is wrong. Maybe the tariffs will backfire and bad things will happen. But I'm also reminded of the definition of insanity. (doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results) He's trying something, it's drastic, but it might just be enough to spark the manufacturing fire and give it some fuel.

If we don't start making stuff again, then when the robotic workforce starts up, they won't be taking lunch breaks or vacations. And other than Utopian lunatics, nobody in the real world is going to pay you to do nothing. (at least pay you enough to enjoy life)

THere's a whole list of Trump stuff that if it were Obama the "liberals" would be all over it, but instead they shriek and do the teeth gnash dance.

Surely there's a flip side.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: burdman30ott6

It's an endless loop. Ask what about NAFTA was good for the average American Worker and you get silence.

Ask why having millions of low skilled workers enter our workforce, Illegally mind you, is somehow good for the average American Worker and you get silience.

Ask why high taxes are better for the Average American than lower taxes and you get some platitudes at least (Don't you like roads fixed and Firefighters), but no real rebuttal. We had those with lower taxes, what changed?

Ask what was or would be so good about the TPP and you get gobbledegook that sounds like NAFTA on Steroids, like that's a good arguement.

Healthcare is a mess, Obamacare was an attempt, it wasn't the solution. Now what do we try?

The United States has the world's largest trade deficit. It's been that way since 1975. The deficit in goods and services was $566 billion in 2017. How do we fix that? Again, Silence from the Left side of the aisle.

Let's not even talk about the National Debt as both Parties have their heads up their asses about that.

But this is all Trumps fault in 2 years.

Give me a break.

NAFTA allows my home state to have a vigorous trade with Canada without extra taxes. Last I looked we had a 4 Billion dollar trade surplus with them.

That is 4 Billion extra money we get from them then they get from us. So yes changing NAFTA in its current form could # all that up. Maybe other states should figure out where they are going wrong instead of destroying the whole damn deal?

a reply to: Pyle

We have a $63 Billion annual trade deficit with Mexico and an estimated 600,000 to 700,000 jobs have left the US for Mexico. Your $4 bil in gains is chicken feed compared to the grotesque whoring of our prosperity to interests south of the US/Mexico border.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

The trade deficit isn't really a deal, since our economies are so lopsided. If we equalize the economies a bit, the deficit shrinks.

The issue with Mexico is labor. They want work, we need workers, and we just can't seem to figure out how to leverage that to our advantage. The problem will get worse as fewer and fewer millenials make babies. Europe is importing their southerners as we speak, to disastrous effect (Mexico is more American than Syria is European, I think).

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Eliminate redundancy, eliminate busy work jobs, and we'd have plenty of Americans needing careers in tangible manufacturing industries. One of the reasons America's economy is so ridiculously tenuous and flighty is that it has become service based... that's how you become a victim of global trends rather than master of your own domain.

Mexico and US economies are lopsided, yes... there are but two options, the US either debases its own economy to be closer to Mexico or we enact trillions worth of programs to artificially uplift a foreign nation's economy. I'm saying both options suck and the underlying problem isn't our problem in any way. End NAFTA, build the wall, limit exposure to the problem until Mexico solves their own issues and returns as a viable, somewhat equal trading partner.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Pyle

We have a $63 Billion annual trade deficit with Mexico and an estimated 600,000 to 700,000 jobs have left the US for Mexico. Your $4 bil in gains is chicken feed compared to the grotesque whoring of our prosperity to interests south of the US/Mexico border.

He just cares about his State, screw the Nation overall.

link to trade data

We have always had trade deficits with Canada.

As long as BOTH countries fairly equally benefit, things work out. It's when things get skewed, problems emerge.

Last year 2017, we ran a 17 Billion dollar trade deficit with Canada. Canada isn't the real problem, we had a free trade deal with them before Nafta, it's the big trade imbalance with Mexico that has not been a good deal.

Nafta needs updating to reflect new economic realities caused by it. Are we never to change agreements if situations change?