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Democratic socialism surging in the age of Trump- Associated Press -Really? Propaganda Much?

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posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 04:38 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
I love how all the socialists IGNORE private property rights.

Like spelled in the 14th amendment.



Socialists coruldn’t care less about the 14th Amendment, the rest of the Bill of Rights, or the US Constitution...or they wouldn't be socialists.
edit on 22/7/2018 by Lab4Us because: Grammar




posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 04:43 PM
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originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Words

Yes, because Democratic Socialism is basically Capitalism light, think, Capitalism with Free Helth care


There is no democratic socialism as far as I know. Folks like Bernie often mistake democratic socialism with social democracy or welfare states.



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 04:55 PM
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a reply to: M5xaz

'Workers owning the means of production' is the most basic definition of socialism that there is (and always has been)... which flies in the face of your right-wing fear laden rewrites.

Worker owned, not government owned.



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: TerryMcGuire

You liberals all hate to work I guess,Trump is for free enterprise,and your thory of cut and run,shows you have little knowledge regarding buisness as your probably a millenium and were taught something socialist,try getting a job,your own place,and a car,don't take the government feed,sounds like your hooked



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 05:34 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

Could it be closer to corporatocracy?


Certainly. In principle I have no problem with taxes as an established funding of the common good, here the common good being defined by the populous and not the corporate shills. This could be the same in a socialist economy. "Could it be closer to a corporatocracy?. Indeed it could and it gets closer and closer ever day.



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 05:44 PM
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were already in a corporatocracy Just look at who runs the EPA, FDA, FED Res, ect ect Corporate to top guns there's more corporate intrests running this country than appointed ppl that actually have public interest



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 05:45 PM
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a reply to: Oldtimer2

You crack me up Mr. Oldtimer2. There is a 50-50 chance I am older than you and like you, if you really have, have worked all my life until retirement. I started out as a butcher boy at 14 and worked my way up to cucumber picker which I decided was not for me at all. I swept out factories, emptied rail cars, stacked boxes and on and on until I was 30 when I managed to get into a trade which I stayed at until retirement. The old 7 to 3 five days a week with side jobs on the week ends.

So pigeonhole me and my perspective if you want to, if it helps your old age to just keep everything caged up in a little box that you can understand.

Trump is not for free enterprise if you check out his history or his tariffs. His invest, skim the profits and run to the bank for another loan is how he worked it. His scams like his ''college'' courses exemplifies his ethic perfectly.

And oh yeah, the government feed. Once oldtimer, once, for two months. That was when my apprenticeship ran out and the local trade employers would rather pay apprentice wages to apprentices than journeyman wages to a new journeyman.

And my place? Ha, you crack me up.



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 05:50 PM
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a reply to: Kharron

Right. I just left it at a couple of million because these folks here would demand links and proof of just how much and frankly even then I doubt with all the work of providing it it would'nt make much difference to them anyway.



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 06:07 PM
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This part of OPs article was interesting.

He said he was encouraged to run for higher office by the same activist who recruited Ocasio-Cortez.



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 06:10 PM
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a reply to: TerryMcGuire

So maybe we agree that what we have now isn't capitalism, but corporatocracy? Excellent.

Now if we could just ditch the #()(*I(&@ political connotations we could actually make some progress here. This is not about political parties. The political parties are there just to ensure we never start cooperating towards a solution.

My absolute and continuously growing hate for anything political will probably see me just saying '# it' and not really caring anymore.

If we could figure out how to put our differences aside or actually use our differing view points to create a better system together, that separately we could never envision, we will keep on getting b# f#ed without lube.

Do you enjoy that sensation? Are you so brainwashed that you have to keep on returning to the comforting blanket of political affiliation?

sorry for being an ass .... i am just getting so frustrated at the political dog and pony show that is our soap opera of choice anymore ... we will always lose being this devided ........ it is time to finally come together .......... no?



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 06:12 PM
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Nvm
edit on 22-7-2018 by Chickensalad because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 06:29 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

I agree the word union has become abhorrent because of corruption along with all the isms. It doesn't matter where the money is the most Narcissistic and Corrupt individuals will rise to the top and siphon off as much money and power for themselves as possible.

What I mean by unions.

Imagine Microsoft Employees all meeting every year and going through the companies PNL. How much goes to Gates, how much to the shareholders, how much to management, how much to the skilled Laborer and how much to maintance and other non technical jobs.

It doesn't have to be so specific as to point out any one man's income outside of Gates which is already known. But about Salary ranges and how much percentage of revenue each of the 5 groups should recieve as an equitable share.

These employees now empowered with the financial knowledge could then hire lawyers and arbitrators to negotiate an equitable percentage for all 5 groups. The lawyers would propose a finacial plan for the next 5 years that everyone would then vote on.

Each year the entire company would meet, even teleconference would be enough and discuss the strength of the company and the success of the collective bargaining agreement. Unless some major change in the corporation took place in the last year they would continue with the agreement propsed in year 1.

In year 5 the employees would then hire another group of lawyers and arbitrators to negotiate a new agreement. In this way there would never be a politcal bureaucracy sitting in a chair of power. If the employees felt like the last agreement was lacking in some way they would hire a different team of lawyers to negotiate based on where they feel they could do better. If the last agreement was favorable they would likely seek to use the same group of lawyers.

In this way the employees maintain some power over those who represent them and the lawyers are incentivised to put together the best deal for everyone as they know that failure would be a loss of future revenue for their firms.

Nothing like today's unions. Just a way for employees to be represented by those whose only intrest would be to negotiate the best deal possible.


edit on 22-7-2018 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 06:48 PM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

Very nice!! Ideas and thoughts on how to bring about change for the better.

I just envision a system where unions wouldn't be necessary. A system where the parasites wouldn't be able to freely extract wealth off of our labor so fricken easy, as they do today. A system that wouldn't reward the sociopaths and narcissists for screwing over their fellow human in the pursuit of material gains. A system where wealth would be kept in a community which would be self sufficient as far as food and shelter supplies are concerned. Where things are produced within a countries boarders or even states boarders. Where companies took pride in their product and pride in their service to customers without the fake BS of 'the customer is always right'.

A new system. A new trial and error where we have learned from all of the past corruption, not dismissing the painful lessons we are going through, but using their *#&# methods against them because they have taught us SO well.

A new system where money isn't created out of thin air. That inflation isn't running 10% a year making the majority of us poorer where the connected get richer and richer while producing nothing, growing nothing or manufacturing nothing. Get rid of insurance and go directly to cash payments. Get rid of the nooks and crannies where they hide their evil fraud of screwing over the innocent. START WORKING TOGETHER to take these mother#*(*#s down.

We can do it. They have been training us for 100s of years now on how to beat them. They have given us their playbook if we only had the courage to open it and start preparing. There will be pain but that is necessary given our complete stupidity and apathy to allow this to happen in the first place.

We can do this the hard way and reform the system without bloodshed. Or we can repeat history, just as we have many, many times before. We can let this thing rot until massive civil or world war breaks out again that will just allow them to consolidate their power even more.


I am ready to try a new direction.



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 06:51 PM
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a reply to: TheJesuit

Dibs on the Czar!



I've said it before and im saying it again AMERICA IS UNDER ATTACK the very values, traits and character that make capitalism and America great are under attack Starting from Kindergarten and seeping it's way right in to College's just take a look at some of the current course's being offered it's fairly prolific in the media and elsewhere aswell if you know what your looking at....educate your selves please....


Try not to panic. Also, try not to propaganda - much :-)


edit on 7/22/2018 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2018 @ 07:28 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

At one period in my life I was an active liberal, back in the 60s. Then I hooked up with a girl who was far right and guess what, I went far right. Years later, decades really I studied Marx and ran with a bunch of labor oriented marxists. I'm over that too. Now I am here trying to understand how the right has morphed into what it is today because as Judy Collins once sang ""I've looked at life from both sides now''.

One thing that I have learned is that both the active right and the active left agree on many many things but both sides are so busy defending their own positions that the discussion rarely is allowed on what those ''real' problems are.

The way we are controlled by the entire banking systerm. Both the active left and the active right are in near complete agreement on that. The stock market. Both understand clearly that it is a gambling show for those with money and has really no effect on how a good economy should work.

Both understand that the media manipulates the masses. Both understand that the morals and social fabric are in jeopardy from the entertainment industry. Both agree that the US needs to not be the boss of the world. Well at least ''some'' conservatives realize that.



posted on Jul, 23 2018 @ 12:24 AM
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originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: BrianFlanders


If you voted for Trump, you voted for him because he wasn't Hillary and you didn't have another choice. I seriously doubt Trump would have been ANYONE'S first choice


I agree. Voters were pushed to vote for Trump because too many people did not want Clinton. That goes for many people who consider themselves to be on the left. Sanders supporters could see the fraud she was and when he was pushed out just decided to hold to their principles and not vote at all.


Most of the people who voted for Trump didn't want Sanders OR Clinton because they both represent exactly the same thing. The truth (though) is much more grim. They ALL represent the same thing when you get right down to it. It's all the same.


Both Clintons and Obama were not socialists, they were capitalists who supported the capitalist system.


Nope. They are all statists. What flavor of statism they have to start out with is up to us. They don't really care if it's socialism writ large or writ small as long as the majority will swallow it. They'll take whatever they can get to start with and baby step to where they want to be when the public stops paying attention (and they always do).

Make no mistake about it. The government IS going to take complete control over the smallest details of your life until you can't even fart without permission. You can call it anything you like but every single one of these people is working on making that happen. Eventually.

Here's the simplest form of what I've just said. We are cattle (Slaves, actually) as far as they are concerned. Literally. We're just lifestock and society is just a big farm. They don't care what you want. AT ALL. None of them. Not Clinton, not Obama, not Trump, not Sanders. All they care about is how to keep you calm, productive, obedient and alive. Until you're no longer useful.

That's it. The Matrix is a much cleaner analogy but it's all the same. The government exists to harvest your resources and use them as it sees fit. Absolutely everyone has a place in this game and no one escapes from it until they die. The people on the top know what's going on and they don't want to be where you are. And they sure couldn't make it on their own. And the vast majority of people living on this planet cannot exist without a state of utter and complete slavery so that's never going to change for as long as humans are on this planet.

What we are discussing is the difference between being put up in a cold barn with no comforts or being put up in a heated barn with a few more basic comforts. Really, we might be better off in the cold barn just so people would know what's going on. This is not capitalism or even socialism. Those words are just more noise to confuse people more than they already are. Make no mistake about it. Some things ARE more unpleasant than others. But we don't even have a chance of changing anything until every single human being understands this fundamental truth of their existence.

This is the real reason why what you believe are your "rights" are completely expendable as far as any government that exists is concerned. If you live in a "western democracy" type of country, those rights are there on paper to keep people in line. As long as you have faith, they have you. As long as they can afford to let you have some liberty, they will. When it becomes very inconvenient, watch out.

At any rate, we are NOT talking about any kind of OVERT change between one type of system and another. This whole civilization thing has been basically the same game for a very long time. What we're talking about is the coming out party for BLATANT authoritarianism/statism/whatever. It has been there all along but it was in the shadows. Censored, if you will. The question is why are they coming out into the light of day right now? What do they want to do that they couldn't do in the shadows?



They supported Wall Street and the banks that control us.


Let me ask you something. If the banks did not exist, where would you be right now?

edit on 23-7-2018 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-7-2018 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-7-2018 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-7-2018 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2018 @ 06:34 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders


The truth (though) is much more grim.


Wow, grim is right. Other than saying ''banana'' "baanaanaa'' our assesments jive rather well. Personally I try to stand away from the grimness of that picture as hope has always been a big part of my approach to life though even though I find it constantly fleeting. So I splash in the shallow waters some things in this circus matter while fearing that nothing does at all.

As you say the ''flavor'' of statism is the only issue separating any of these public figures who would ask for our support. And it is right that most of us prefer to believe that statism is a problem with ''the other side'' while our side won't let that happen to our gang. That slope seems constant and really, again it seems, that the only real issue is which side will hold out against the eventual collapse of freedoms and the rise of total totalitarianism, be it a tsunami or just the gentle lapping of shore break.

For my vision there is no respite. It is my impression that many suppose that all we need to do is to straighten out the government, and do away with progressives and liberals and all will be well. Yet the statism I am more concerned with is the economic engine of statism. Corporations. It matters not I think whether or not the oppression we face is directed by the government or the corporate structure that backs it, it all comes out the same # hole, just different colors and textures.

Certainly there is the valid fear that the ''gubbment'' will sit down on our faces and demand compliance to all it's strictures and this is one that we all need be concerned with. However it is my contention that the looming corporate structures already have their pants down for that ''sitting'' and it is only a matter of a short time before we can no longer breath but from what foul air comes out of you know what. Coke or Pepsi. New or older barbie dolls.

That hope I mentioned earlier, fleeting though it is? It certainly does not see light in the vision of total corporate control, corporate statism as it is they, the promoters of capitalism at any price who have engineered the modern machine of mind control. There is no control on the hand that feeds you other than turning down ones nose at coco puffs and holding out for lucky charms.

I would say that my hope WAS in our ability to somehow take back control of the tool, government, while we the people still had a semblance of clarity but now even that hope for public clarity has flown and I am left with that vision of total annihilation of the human spirit that seems the end goal of all forms of statism.

So yeah, banana, baanaanaa, should we really give a crap? Maybe not but what else is there to do in the early morning wide awake with heart burn and the Tums or was sit Alka Twos are not doing their promised trick.

So please come back if you will and further this little conservation. Trying to get on the same page around here is difficult but you know me,, hope springs.



posted on Jul, 23 2018 @ 06:39 AM
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originally posted by: CB328



without true education on what socialism is and a historical look at what it accomplished and destroyed people


Whoa, who has socialism destroyed??? Capitalism is destroying much of the world, but socialist countries seem to be fine, unless you are trying that garbage of calling dictatorships like Cuba socialism.

I think it is you that needs some education, or should I say re-education?

It is ignorance like this that scares the hell outta me. Who is teaching our nation? Socialist?



posted on Jul, 23 2018 @ 12:23 PM
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Just the left's version of the tea party. Both side have their extremists who suddenly gain popularity. Probably gain some traction on the local level but that's about it.



posted on Jul, 23 2018 @ 05:25 PM
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“The next time you hear me attacked as a socialist — like tomorrow — remember this: I don’t believe government should take over the grocery store down the street, or own the means of production,” he said. “But I do believe that the middle class and the working families of this country who produce the wealth of this county deserve a decent standard of living, and that their incomes should go up, not down.”~Bernie Sanders
a reply to: TheJesuit

The key difference between socialism and democratic socialism is that democratic socialists don't want the government to own the means of production and socialists do. They believe that certain general social goods like health care should be run by the government, but otherwise support capitalism. Denmark, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, Sweden, Norway, Ireland, and others have been characterized as social democracies.

President Franklin Delano Roosevelt believed in it and laid out ideas like universal healthcare. Almost everything he proposed was labeled as being 'socialist.' Social security, minimum wage, unemployment insurance, abolishing child labor, the 40 hour work week, collective bargaining, strong banking regulations, deposit insurance, and job programs that put millions of people to work were all described in one way or another as 'socialist.' Yet these programs are the foundation of a strong middle class. His four electoral victories and 12 years in office are the most for any US President. At the heart, this is what Democratic Socialists desire.

To put it another way-Modern social democracy is characterized by a commitment to policies aimed at curbing inequality, poverty, and the oppression of underprivileged groups; including support for universally accessible public services like education, health care, workers' compensation, child care and care for the elderly.

The social democratic movement also has strong connections with trade unions and the labor movement, and is supportive of collective bargaining rights for workers as well as measures to extend democratic decision-making beyond politics into the economic sphere in the form of co-determination for employees and other economic stakeholders. Whether you agree with Bernie Sanders political views or not, it's important for Americans to understand the difference between traditional socialism and democratic socialism.

To add, it does not do away with free markets, private businesses, or our freedom. Unsurprisingly, it's already playing a huge part in our country, and we may not even realize it. Some of the most obvious are things like medicare and social security, but some people don't realize that the reason we have a military, national parks, our justice system, public transportation, disposal of our toilet waste, garbage collection, firefighters, police officers, and even the roads we drive on is because of democratic socialism.

To look at the flip side...These programs do take money, and because the government would have to pay for them it would have to increase taxes in some way. In countries successfully implementing the programs Bernie Sanders is advocating for like universal health care and free public college tuition, taxes are higher especially on the upper class. But because of these taxes, they don't have to spend their savings or go bankrupt for things like going to the hospital or getting an education. They don't have insanely high healthcare premiums/deductibles or student debt. They have a more equal distribution of wealth and generally a higher standard of living.


edit on 23-7-2018 by Gumerk because: clarification




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