I have found that many people (some of them appear to be freemasons) attribute mystical, spiritual and occult knowledge to the order. My own reading of the Craft rituals show that they are concerned with moral principals, albeit related through allegory and symbolism. The rituals emphasise the individuals duty to his family, his friends, his work and eventually to freemasonry. It is true that there are religious overtones to the rituals, which is evinced by the use of hymns and prayers but these seem to be very much in the back ground as they are not given a theological framework.

Where there are sects within masonry such as the S. R. I. A. that are mystical (or at least they would like to be) the occult appears to be confined strictly to them and not to the mainstream. The mainstream Masonic orders like the Craft, Royal Arch, Mark and Royal Ark Mariner by contrast provide only humanistic values. This may well be the starting point for theosophical and occult theory but it need not be.

The requirement to believe in a supreme being is, as we know, a cornerstone of freemasonry but no indication of its nature is ever given in the rituals. The nature of the G. A. O. T. U. seems to be the only mystery in the order.

Tell me am I missing something? Is there an occult mystery or arcane spiritual truth in the Freemasons? If not why all the speculation about what it may be?







[edit on 21-2-2005 by pignut]

Originally posted by pignut
I have found that many people (some of them appear to be freemasons) attribute mystical, spiritual and occult knowledge to the order. My own reading of the Craft rituals show that they are concerned with moral principals, albeit related through allegory and symbolism. The rituals emphasise the individuals duty to his family, his friends, his work and eventually to freemasonry...Is there an occult mystery or arcane spiritual truth in the Freemasons? If not why all the speculation about what it may be?

The so-called "degree work", which are the ceremonies of initiation throughout the various degrees, are primarily concerned with morality and ethics, especially in the York Rite. Philosophy is first introduced in the Second Degree, but only in general.

In the degrees of the Scottish Rite, mysticism plays a more prominent role. Morality and ethics are still inculcated there, but various disciplines of metaphysics are presented, especially those of the Kabalah and Hermeticism.

Don't forget a good dose of Gnosticism.

I worship my Father in Heaven, and Freemasons worship the God of their Fathers. Hmmm....

Easy to assume its the same, isn't it.

Originally posted by akilles
...Freemasons worship the God of their Fathers.

Most people do worship the God of their fathers... But as far as your comment goes, Freemasons worship whatever God they know and choose to worship in whatever way the know and choose to worship Him/Her. What's wrong with that?

Originally posted by Masonic LightIn the degrees of the Scottish Rite, mysticism plays a more prominent role. Morality and ethics are still inculcated there, but various disciplines of metaphysics are presented, especially those of the Kabalah and Hermeticism.

I know this is true for the Scottish Rite (or ‘Rose Croix’ as it is called here) in the USA Here in the UK the AAA(S)R is exclusively Christen. the degrees from 4th to the 17th are conferred by name only, prior to perfection in the 18th.

I have been fortunate to have read the 18th degree ritual from an internet site and it is exclusively Christian in character the word [which I will not give here] is given a Christian rather than alchemical interpretation. Indeed the degree as a whole has a Christian theme.

There are many aspects of the 18th degree which are deeply mysterious and it would be easy to interoperate the ceremony as a Rosicrucian allegory but the meanings of symbols are slippery and difficult to pin down hence my question. Here it seems that ethical principals are emphasised within a christian framework rarther than an hermetic one.

I understand that the rituals 4th to 17th gradually illuminate the meaning of the name of God. If this is true then the nature of God is reveald in the 18th degree to be Christian in nature (at least here).

As for the degrees beond the 18th I can say nothing exept that the next one to be encountered is the 30th, the intermediate degrees again being conferred my name only whether these are occult in nature Iam unable to say.






[edit on 21-2-2005 by pignut]

Hate to be a bastard, but 18 = 6+6+6

Or 6 x 3, an important Masonic number (by the fact there are 3 degrees).

I don't see why they couldn't have waited for the 7+7+7th degree.

So you are saying the Rose Croix are not related to the Rosicrucians, am I to understand?

Originally posted by akilles
Hate to be a bastard, but 18 = 6+6+6

Or 6 x 3, an important Masonic number (by the fact there are 3 degrees).

I don't see why they couldn't have waited for the 7+7+7th degree.

I know how much you would love for that to be true, but 6+6+6 is not a special number in masonry. Sorry. You think it's important just cuz there are 3 degrees!?!? There used to be only 2 degrees, so how do you explain that now?

Originally posted by pignut


I know this is true for the Scottish Rite (or ‘Rose Croix’ as it is called here) in the USA Here in the UK the AAA(S)R is exclusively Christen. the degrees from 4th to the 17th are conferred by name only, prior to perfection in the 18th.

Very true. However, the Rose Croix degree itself is saturated with Rosicrucian symbolism, and the Rosicrucians were both Hermeticists and Kabalists, as is shown in both the Fama and Confessio. They were also a Christian-only fraternity, but this did not prevent them from the study of Kabalah; indeed, Hermeticism itself is the result of the "Christianization" of the Kabalah.

I have been fortunate to have read the 18th degree ritual from an internet site and it is exclusively Christian in character the word [which I will not give here] is given a Christian rather than alchemical interpretation. Indeed the degree as a whole has a Christian theme.

The word to which you are referring here is both Christian and Alchemical. The Rosicrucian documents of the 17th century which carry this Word (also proving that they didn't consider it esoteric) attests to this. This is further elaborated on by Brother A.C.F. Jackson in his book "Rose Croix: A History of the Ancient and Accepted Rite For England and Wales."

The mystical character of the degree can be seen from a document that predates even the Premiere Grand Lodge. In 1638, a poem was published in a Scottish pamphlet that featured the lines:

"For what we do presage is not in grosse,
For we be brethren of the Rosie Crosse;
We have the Mason word, and second sight;
Things for to come we can foretell aright."

There are many aspects of the 18th degree which are deeply mysterious and it would be easy to interoperate the ceremony as a Rosicrucian allegory but the meanings of symbols are slippery and difficult to pin down hence my question. Here it seems that ethical principals are emphasised within a christian framework rarther than an hermetic one.

The Hermetic tradition itself is the result of Christians taking up the study of Kabalah. This is what separates the Hermetic school from the Classical or "Kosher" Kabalah, i.e., the former were Christians, while the latter were Hebrews.

Originally posted by akilles
Don't forget a good dose of Gnosticism.

I worship my Father in Heaven, and Freemasons worship the God of their Fathers. Hmmm....

Easy to assume its the same, isn't it.

If you think we owe you an apology for, or explanation of, our religious beliefs, I'd strongly suggest you think again.

'Our'?

I mistakenly thought your Brotherhood wasn't religious.

You just couldn't help but speak in the royal we, and you have told me what I knew all along, despite the denials.

Originally posted by akilles
'Our'?

I mistakenly thought your Brotherhood wasn't religious.

You just couldn't help but speak in the royal we, and you have told me what I knew all along, despite the denials.

Axeman, under your troll pictures, try adding some text like what the meaning is of the tiled black and white floor in all Masonic lodges.

Enlighten while you ridicule, if you please.

Originally posted by akilles
'Our'?

I mistakenly thought your Brotherhood wasn't religious.

You seem to have trouble understanding, so I'll try to use small words for you:

It is none of your business what my religious beliefs are. Nor is it any of your business what other Masons' religious beliefs are. Nor is it any of your business what other non-Masons religious beliefs are.

Comprende?

You believe you are better than the Profane, I 'comprende' that much.

I know your beliefs more than you could 'comprende' or admit.

Originally posted by akilles
You believe you are better than the Profane, I 'comprende' that much.

I know your beliefs more than you could 'comprende' or admit.

What an arrogant, petty minded little fool.
You claim to know somebody else's belief system?

That claim just goes to show that you know nothing. From the inane ramblings and failed conspiracy theories that you post here, you have proven that you know very little of actual theology or history and what paltry knowledge you do have, you have twisted to suit your own perverted little agenda. It's highly doubtful if you even know your own beliefs, let alone have the capacity to judge others.

Your superiority complex has blinded you to your own ignorance.


[edit on 22-2-2005 by Leveller]

Originally posted by akilles
Axeman, under your troll pictures, try adding some text like what the meaning is of the tiled black and white floor in all Masonic lodges.
Enlighten while you ridicule, if you please.

Allow me ol' troll.

First of all not "ALL" Masonic Lodges have a black & white floor. My Lodge for example has a putrid green carpet. (Not sure what that symbolizes, except that the members of the Order of Amaranth helped pick it out in the 70's) HERE is what the black & white "checkered pavement" symbolizes though. No secret here...

"The Mosaic Pavement is a representation of the ground floor of King Solomon's temple, and is emblematical of human life, checkered with good and evil.
As the steps of men are trod in the various and uncertain incidents of life, our days are variegated and checkered by a strange contrariety of events, and our passage through this existence, though sometimes attended by prosperous circumstances, is often beset by a multitude of evils, therefore is the Lodge furnished with Mosaic work, to remind us of the precariousness of our state on earth. Today our feet tread in prosperity; tomorrow we may totter on the uneven paths of weakness, temptation and adversity. While this emblem is before us we are instructed to boast of nothing; to have compassion and to give aid to those who are in adversity; to walk uprightly and with humility; for such is this existence, that there is no station in which pride can be stably founded; all men, in birth and in the grave, are on a level. While we tread on this Mosaic work, let our ideas return to the original, whence we copy, and let our every act be as the dictates of reason prompt us, to live in brotherly love."
--The Kentucky Monitor (Ritual)

Is that enlightening enough?



[edit on 22-2-2005 by senrak]

Hi pignut

Originally posted by pignut
I have found that many people (some of them appear to be freemasons) attribute mystical, spiritual and occult knowledge to the order. My own reading of the Craft rituals show that they are concerned with moral principals, albeit related through allegory and symbolism. The rituals emphasise the individuals duty to his family, his friends, his work and eventually to freemasonry. It is true that there are religious overtones to the rituals, which is evinced by the use of hymns and prayers but these seem to be very much in the back ground as they are not given a theological framework.

Your own reading of the ritual is pretty accurate. One of the features of freemasonry is it allows individuals a fairly broad interpretion of the symbols - this is in part necessary as masons can be from many different religions and specifics may not always be appropriate. Many freemasons, IMHO, get rather carried away with this; but that is entirely a matter for them a perfectly legitimate. Each of us may take a different path but the destination is always the same.

Where there are sects within masonry such as the S. R. I. A. that are mystical (or at least they would like to be) the occult appears to be confined strictly to them and not to the mainstream. The mainstream Masonic orders like the Craft, Royal Arch, Mark and Royal Ark Mariner by contrast provide only humanistic values. This may well be the starting point for theosophical and occult theory but it need not be.

Freemasonry is a system of morality veiled in allegory. Veiled as in Hidden as in Occult. Because masons can take a variety of routes to their goal there are a variety of sects (we call them Side Orders) which appeal to different interest groups.

The requirement to believe in a supreme being is, as we know, a cornerstone of freemasonry but no indication of its nature is ever given in the rituals. The nature of the G. A. O. T. U. seems to be the only mystery in the order.

This is because it is not down to freemasonry to define or illustrate the nature of godhead - that is the domain of religion. Masons bring their own understanding of divinity to the table and interpret the lessons of freemasonry within their own context.

Tell me am I missing something? Is there an occult mystery or arcane spiritual truth in the Freemasons? If not why all the speculation about what it may be?

The lessons taught by freemasonry are not secret - they are out there for any who are willing to look. The only mystery is, when all this is fully explained ad nauseam, why some people choose an alternative explanation

Originally posted by akilles
Axeman, under your troll pictures, try adding some text like what the meaning is of the tiled black and white floor in all Masonic lodges.

Senrak was kind enough to enlighten you, though I wouldn't have wasted the keystrokes. Perhaps he felt that someone would benefit from his answering you (like me ). As far as the troll picture? Get used to it if you are going to keep posting remarks like the one above. I call it like I see it, and the picture says all I need to say when I see posts like that from you or any other troll.

Enlighten while you ridicule, if you please.

I have wasted all the time I am prepared to waste on attempting to get anything across to you. Furthermore, I am not ridiculing you. You are a troll, and you are not here to learn anything, that is painfully obvious to everyone.



[edit on 2/22/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

.... the Rose Croix degree itself is saturated with Rosicrucian symbolism, and the Rosicrucians were both Hermeticists and Kabalists, as is shown in both the Fama and Confessio. They were also a Christian-only fraternity, but this did not prevent them from the study of Kabalah; indeed, Hermeticism itself is the result of the "Christianization" of the Kabalah.

I have long been sceptical about whether the Rosicrucians genuinely existed as an organisation. I am not sure that the publication of the two manifestoes are adequate reasons to believe in the that a confraternity authored them, they may just have been written by a practical joker. That said this does not invalidate Rosicrucian philosophy, which is as you say an admixture of different strands of the occult, all of which would predate such an institution.

Many people wanted to belong to the Rosicrucians but were unable to join (for the reasons stated above) so they formed there own bodys. A great many organisations sprung up constructed upon Rosicrucian ideals, some of these focused upon the scientific side, such as the Royal Society. Other organisations concentrated on the mystical and philosophical aspects of the Rosicrucians.

I have long thought that Freemasonry was indirectly influenced by what the Rosicrucians were supposed to have been, I just don’t know whether their mystical beliefs were included. I have just considered the Rosicrucians (hoax or not) as symptomatic of the Age of Enlightenment. The Freemasons (the Craft) would easily fit into this as a watered down imitation of the Rosicrucians.

The A.A.A.R. may therefore contain more Rosicrucians symbolism, without detriment to my theory, as it has a differend historical progress than the Craft and therefore had many additonal influences.

The word to which you are referring here is both Christian and Alchemical.

I can believe that because i understand that alchemy was a watered down form of Christian Gnosticism. My point was that no explicit statement is made to the effect that the word is alchemical, only a Christian meaning is given in the rituals (at least in the UK). I feel that the alchemy is theire if you want to see it but it is not if you do not want to, that is how symbols work after all. The question is was alchemy an integral part of the degree from the outset or did these interpretation creep in latter? When i find the time i will read Jackson's book and pehaps we will see, [thanks for the suggestion].