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World’s top industries wouldn't be profitable at all if they paid for natural capital they use

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posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:23 PM
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I heard Peter Joseph recently say that there would be no profits in capitalism at all if the negative externalities they cause were taken into account. The classic example is superfund sites, stadium deals, or Walmart causing governments to pay for subsidizing their workers. Here is an article about the study that confirms that the top industries in the world take more from society than the profits they generate, so they are actually losing money while destroying the world at the same time. This is why we need more socialism, because capitalism has no regard for society or the planet.

grist.org...




posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:31 PM
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a reply to: CB328

Yea no.. capitalism goes beyond the all mighty dollar.

Even Marx knew this and even proposed that a healthy dose of both worlds would be best. Inevitably capitalism creates healthy competition, but with advances in technology and social reform we should be striving for passion of self worth and community to build a stronger society.

But I need to go on at this point since I dare to mention Marx.
His world vision back when he wrote his works for the commune were much different than in today's world. But his vision of a positive - negative utopia is relative to the the time, it's mean of getting there have no bounds tho. People NEED to strive for peaceful living and building a society that works together, not against itself.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:31 PM
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a reply to: CB328

Now stop and think for a moment... if we're struggling this much with a system that "barely covers" the freebies and handouts through profits, payrolls, and corporate taxes how God awful would we look with only the state giving and no corporations to make payrolls, investment profits, or to tax?

Stop and actually think about it before you jump on the Marxist virtue signal.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:33 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: CB328

Stop and actually think


That's where you lost him.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:35 PM
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how God awful would we look with only the state giving and no corporations to make payrolls, investment profits, or to tax?


Where did I say we should only have the state and no business???

We need socialism, or more likely a mixed economy which is what we used to have in this country when I was growing up before we gave robber barons and criminals all the power.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:39 PM
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a reply to: CB328


I love the natural Capitol part of the article.
Amazing they can come up with a dollar amount for that one.

Might as well set the price on unicorn farts.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:40 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

Well considering the states is the largest economy without actually having much of one to begin with goes to show that there's more money coming in, but not redistributed. Have you even wondered that?

What do you offer to the world other than office buildings and corporate head offices? You have no solid industry, and if you do it's made somewhere else for cheaper and the population just buys it back.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: CB328

Yea no.. capitalism goes beyond the all mighty dollar.

Even Marx knew this and even proposed that a healthy dose of both worlds would be best. Inevitably capitalism creates healthy competition, but with advances in technology and social reform we should be striving for passion of self worth and community to build a stronger society.

But I need to go on at this point since I dare to mention Marx.
His world vision back when he wrote his works for the commune were much different than in today's world. But his vision of a positive - negative utopia is relative to the the time, it's mean of getting there have no bounds tho. People NEED to strive for peaceful living and building a society that works together, not against itself.


Yes but Capital externalizes costs that it should be paying and not putting on taxpayers and individuals as the OP's referenced article states.

Let's start with the intro to the article:


The notion of “externalities” has become familiar in environmental circles.

It refers to costs imposed by businesses that are not paid for by those businesses.

For instance, industrial processes can put pollutants in the air that increase public health costs, but the public, not the polluting businesses, picks up the tab. In this way, businesses privatize profits and publicize costs.


By paying these 'external' costs the cost of 'goods' may be too high for consumers and hence producers would have to find other means of production or not produce at all. (What the market will bear and all that rot).

Consumers pay those costs at the back end and not up-front where the decision to buy is made therefor it is a deceptive business model (or business as usual).

Smith also stated that for markets to work the participants all need to have ready access to all the pertinent information about any given 'product'.
edit on 12-7-2018 by FyreByrd because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:45 PM
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originally posted by: CB328



how God awful would we look with only the state giving and no corporations to make payrolls, investment profits, or to tax?


We need socialism.


Right. Socialism. So good you have to force people to do it.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:46 PM
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a reply to: CB328


Here’s how those costs break down:

The majority of unpriced natural capital costs are from greenhouse gas emissions (38%),

followed by water use (25%), land use (24%), air pollution (7%),

land and water pollution (5%), and waste (1%).

So how much is that costing us? Trucost’s headline results are fairly stunning.

First, the total unpriced natural capital consumed by the more than 1,000 “global primary production and primary processing region-sectors” amounts to $7.3 trillion a year — 13 percent of 2009 global GDP.


grist.org...

naturalcapitalcoalition.org...

Those are the hidden costs - mostly picked up by taxpayers around the world and paid for in suffering of individuals.

There is so much more here - have to run - anniversary tonight - yay.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:47 PM
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a reply to: CB328

This is a wonderful find - thank you so much!!!!!



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:48 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

Right.
But capitalism does not allow for the participants to access most of the information. Or if they are given it, they are swoon over by advertising and marketing, but even still what goes on behind closed doors with the bosses never really reaches the public. This is where government is needed.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:49 PM
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There's this thing called "property rights". Commies don't know much about that, except when they are taking it from someone else.

"natural capital"

Another BS term for imposing another BS tax.
edit on 12 7 18 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:50 PM
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a reply to: schuyler

Then that's called a dictatorship. Witch is neither a socialist or capitalism ideology...



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:50 PM
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originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: FyreByrd

Right.
But capitalism does not allow for the participants to access most of the information. Or if they are given it, they are swoon over by advertising and marketing, but even still what goes on behind closed doors with the bosses never really reaches the public. This is where government is needed.



Precisely - and as Adam Smith called for. Tight regulation of Capital.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:52 PM
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originally posted by: CB328
I heard Peter Joseph recently say that there would be no profits in capitalism at all if the negative externalities they cause were taken into account. The classic example is superfund sites, stadium deals, or Walmart causing governments to pay for subsidizing their workers. Here is an article about the study that confirms that the top industries in the world take more from society than the profits they generate, so they are actually losing money while destroying the world at the same time. This is why we need more socialism, because capitalism has no regard for society or the planet.

grist.org...
That’s not accurate. Many still would be viable. Profits may go down in some cases. And yes some rapacious business models wouldn’t work once changed.

However, yes, all effective environmental regulation is supposed to do is force companies to account for the full cost of doing business. This means having to account for such things as environmental impact and use of the commons, “internalizing” these “externalities.” Even externalities is a false word, as they are impacts and costs that are directly due to a given industry or company.

I’ve never understood why so many conservatives fight against this, when it’s literally a conservative idea of living within one’s means beyond finance. You know, balancing the budget. Moreover, sustainable development partly is defined as not passing environmental debt on to future generations. This is why it seems that most anti environmental folks are either scientifically ignorant or deny the validity so they don’t have to do an accurate true cost analysis.
edit on 12-7-2018 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-7-2018 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:55 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

That argument is ridiculous.

You're now coming up with unquantifiable "costs" that somehow magically outweigh whatever payroll and taxes a business generates for the community.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:59 PM
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a reply to: watchitburn

When it says greenhouse gases account for 38% of "unpriced" natural Capitol I knew it was all crap.
They magically put a price on the unpriced gases.
Whatever...



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:59 PM
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I love the natural Capitol part of the article. Amazing they can come up with a dollar amount for that one.


It's not hard, governments do it all the time. For instance they know how much polluted sites cost to clean up, because they usually get stuck with most or all of the bill. They also know how much the resources are worth that they give to businesses for pennies like timber, water and grazing rights.



posted on Jul, 12 2018 @ 08:59 PM
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a reply to: projectvxn

No you're right.

But here's a good example of how a socialist society can work.

If you are a carpenter, and you are known for your chair making, then you should be able to pursue that passion. If your chairs are flying off the shelves and you need help to build the chairs and you enforce strict chair making procedures, and you treat your employees fair, and give them a fair wage, your property rights are not infringed upon but you are giving back to the society through fair workers rights, which will in turn benefit you.

But if you take the approach of a capitalist, hire a bunch of people, enforce strict procedure, and keep 90% of the profit, is that fair?



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