objecting to " gay " birthday cakes ? the farce deepens

a reply to: TheRedneck

The ruling from SCOTUS in the Colorado case was narrow and did not address the artistic expression argument. It found that Colorado had not remained neutral to the baker's religion because of comments made in some of the hearings. The finding of discrimination was reversed for that reason and that's all that happened.

Aside from noting that, there's really nothing more to say. There's nothing illegal about what the lady did in Ohio.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Hmmm... thought I had read that part about religious expression in the ruling... no matter, it's a moot point. You are correct that her actions were not illegal.

Immoral... that's another issue, for every potential customer to decide.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

They did make comments on artistic expression as well as saying that Colorado has the right to protect its citizens from unfair discrimination, even the gay ones. It was a mixed bag for "both sides."

I've had a few experiences lately (I've moved to a different part of town) in which it was quite obvious to me that a business really didn't want my business ... but oddly enough, that seems to have to do with being racially/cultrually different than the majority of my new neighbors ... so I've actually had a chance to experience this question first hand.

I found that my reaction was simply "well, I won't make the mistake of coming in HERE again ... "

Personally, though, I think we're going to have to work this matter out of first and second-class citizens sooner or later.

The problem with identity politics cuts both ways. It's just as wrong to mistreat someone because of who they are as it is for someone to expect special/preferential treatment because of who they are.

a reply to: Gryphon66

As a self-professed redneck, I have had my share of bigotry as well. Believe it or not, just having a full beard in some areas will get one snubbed.

But I agree. A very important document once stated "All men are created equal"... what they do with themselves after that is on them. I wish we could somehow evolve to the point where, as Dr. Martin Luther King said, people are judged by their character, not their physical appearance or political/religious beliefs.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Gryphon66

As a self-professed redneck, I have had my share of bigotry as well. Believe it or not, just having a full beard in some areas will get one snubbed.

But I agree. A very important document once stated "All men are created equal"... what they do with themselves after that is on them. I wish we could somehow evolve to the point where, as Dr. Martin Luther King said, people are judged by their character, not their physical appearance or political/religious beliefs.

TheRedneck

I quoted this because these are important words and deserved repeating. I grew up in Atlanta and then in rural western GA. I guess between redneck/city boy I can go both ways, LOL. I jest but such musings point out the silliness of identity politics.

I really, really believe that if we can return to a basis of "live and let live" and stop trying to control each other's behaviors and beings for one reason and another, respect differences, demand respect in return (not acceptance) and just get the hell on with life ... we'd all be much happier.

Thanks for being you, Redneck.

a reply to: ignorant_ape

I'm not sure why the baker thinks they have any leg to stand on here. I can see why one would not want to be a part of a gay wedding on religious grounds, but there is no religious proscription against a birthday that I am aware of.

That should be clear cut discrimination.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ignorant_ape

I'm not sure why the baker thinks they have any leg to stand on here. I can see why one would not want to be a part of a gay wedding on religious grounds, but there is no religious proscription against a birthday that I am aware of.

That should be clear cut discrimination.

Not in Ohio.

EDIT: BTW, thanks for voicing your position. I honestly mean that.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Understand something, I know you don't like my explanations of why people object to gay marriage on religious grounds, but what I keep trying to underscore is that when someone does it for religious reasons, it isn't about who the two people are who are seeking a union. It's a personal spiritual objection for that person to not want to be involved in that particular ceremony for their own spiritual health.

In this case, there is no deeper religious meaning or ceremonial rite involved in a birthday cake that has higher symbolism or sacredness. It's simply a celebration marking a person's birth. The wedding on the other hand is one of the most sacred rites for a person in Christianity (or it should be), and Christians tend to believe that God himself ordained what that is for a variety of reasons going beyond merely hooking two people together. It's deeper than that and does involve the whole man/woman thing.

So, yeah, some Christians do feel that to participate in a wedding that is other than God said it should be is a personal sin for them, and that's where most of those objections are seated. Not in who or what the others are. Understand the dude in Colorado didn't even make Halloween cakes, so that should give you an idea of how deeply his own brand of faith went for him.

But this? Yeah, someone is either testing how far the lack of protections go in seeking to overturn religious protections or being a straight up bigot.

a reply to: ketsuko

Thanks for the clarification, I hear what you're saying, and believe it or not, I have heard what you are saying on most occasions while not agreeing with you.

To me, religion is a personal matter. I know that religious beliefs can affect how one behaves in the world, but it is primarily an inner, subjective relationship to how one thinks the universe works.

All of us have subjective beliefs that we have to keep in their proper place in order to function in society on a daily basis. For example, someone who denies the most fundamental scientific knowledge seems to me to have a mental disorder, and I could very easily therefore choose not to do business with them as they are ... either mentally ill or deficient.

However, in my line of work (real estate) I don't have that option of acting on that sincerely held belief. If my beliefs are going to keep me from acting legally in my vocation EVEN ONCE, then I need a new job.

I can tell you that from my personal perspective, if I went into a shop to buy something for me and my partner, and the person said "I really just don't want to sell you this for religious reasons" I would most likely thank them and go somewhere else. (Well, in Georgia I don't have a legal leg to stand on anyway.)

HOWEVER, that's a personal decision. I don't tend to want to force people to do anything.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Well, my perspective on things like this is that people need latitude to be who and what they are otherwise there is no point to having freedoms. On some occasions that means we have to compromise in various ways in order to either live in ways that are acceptable to us or to operate our places of business in ways we feel are ethical/moral or in order to get those goods and services we feel we need or want.

I know I would far rather business owners be allowed to operate on their conscience and personal values than simply be constrained to chase the dollar constantly no matter what. Sometimes, that freedom is going to be an inconvenience, but at other times, it's going to be much better than constantly having to worry about how far they're going to steal my cash like some bigger business models I can think of.

But it does mean we all have to accept certain amount of compromise.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Some pretty important words are in your post as well:

I really, really believe that if we can return to a basis of "live and let live" and stop trying to control each other's behaviors and beings for one reason and another, respect differences, demand respect in return (not acceptance) and just get the hell on with life ... we'd all be much happier.

That's what all this boils down to: respect. In my world, people get a certain amount of respect just for existing. What they do from there, when I interact with them, will either increase or decrease my respect for them. And if someone loses enough of my respect, I won't even interact with them.

The fastest way to lose my respect is to refuse to give respect to others without cause. That's what we see in politics lately (and usually in religion).

Thanks for being you, Redneck.

Can't be nothing else. Not smart enough.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ketsuko

Compromise is fine and is indeed necessary in social interactions. Again, it seems to me that religious beliefs inform a persons actions for themselves not for others. The focus is personal, not cultural, and I feel safe here to generalize and say "and it shouldn't be."

When personal religious beliefs are applied to the rest of the world that act in and of itself is the fundamental core of non-compromise. Religions are notoriously black and white when it comes to behavior. Therefore, as social creatures, we should understand that our religious beliefs are PERSONAL not UNIVERSAL.

IMO.

a reply to: TheRedneck



I have always dearly loved that in the Southern idiom, a double negative is perfectly acceptable for emphasis.

Alright well....clearly the only solution to this bull# is to ban cakes...# it just ban all baking then no one can get their feelings hurt by not getting the baked goods they want.

originally posted by: dug88
Alright well....clearly the only solution to this bull# is to ban cakes...# it just ban all baking then no one can get their feelings hurt by not getting the baked goods they want.

Yeah sure ... that's a lot better than a business just doing what they're in business for and making money.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: dug88
Alright well....clearly the only solution to this bull# is to ban cakes...# it just ban all baking then no one can get their feelings hurt by not getting the baked goods they want.

Yeah sure ... that's a lot better than a business just doing what they're in business for and making money.

That was supposed to be sarcasm....I figured it would be obvious what with the complete and utter ridiculousness of banning baking.....

a reply to: dug88

In a world where States try to legislate to stop issuing marriage licenses simply to deny same sex marriage "ridiculous" takes on all new meaning.

a reply to: Allaroundyou

What happens when eventually you have no where else to go ?

The restaurant down the street doesn't like my politics so can't go there. The restaurant across the street doesn't like my life style.

The grocery store on the corner refuses service because I drive a foreign car.

The Catholic hospital does not like that I am a Baptist and tell me to go somewhere else.

I call the police because my house is robbed, the responding officer doesn't like my long hair and choice of clothes, and refuses to take a report.

It has to stop somewhere or it will never stop and while I exaggerate, do I ?

If a birthday cake wants to be gay, who are we to tell it no?

a reply to: DJMSN

What about when a majority Muslim city council wants to establish Sharia law?

...and they get to do so, because, religious belief.