Boris Johnson quits to add to pressure on May over Brexit

a reply to: mirageman


That is how democracy works. Brexit won, deal with it.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: fakedirt

I used to rattle on and on here on ATS about the need for urgent and radical electoral and parliamentary reform, I believe that is true today more than it has ever been.

I miss those days!

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: mirageman


That is how democracy works. Brexit won, deal with it.

No one really won anything, Brexit hasnt won because its not even formulated
Brexit is a failure by our government to show that they can do anything right at all !
We all need to quit with the delusion we live in a democracy when there isnt one !

what has won , is the elite and their ability to continually # us all over a barrel
and have us believe we are going to be ok afterwards!

originally posted by: sapien82

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: mirageman


That is how democracy works. Brexit won, deal with it.

No one really won anything, Brexit hasnt won because its not even formulated
Brexit is a failure by our government to show that they can do anything right at all !
We all need to quit with the delusion we live in a democracy when there isnt one !

what has won , is the elite and their ability to continually # us all over a barrel
and have us believe we are going to be ok afterwards!

Whilst I am not an alarmist by any stretch, I foresee a great deal of trouble for the remainers and any party linked to it. The turnout of the Referendum was approx 3 million higher than a general election, I think I know who they are.

If I am a microcosm of the UK, I have 8 very close friends of which I am the only one who votes, the rest "dont see the point", they are all in barely minimum wage jobs, some divorced, some never married, some married for 20 years. No hassles in life, we bought houses when they were cheap so the mortgage is affordable and all kids are grown up so no welfare for the divorced. So as long as there is enough money for a beer and a cheap holiday once per year and to run the car, noone cares who is in charge of the country.

However, 6 of them stepped foot in a polling station for the first time to vote for Brexit. One cannot compete with eastern european cheap decorators living in a hostel for free and sending all money back East. 2 of them lost their job as welders when it went to poland and they are all very pro-english, regardless of how intelligent they are, they hate the fact that Europeans can tell us what to do, even though they have not done a days service, they regularly spout, "we didnt win 2 world wars to be told what to do by anyone".

If they are reflective of the 3 million other people who came out for Brexit and the government f**ks it up one of two things will happen imo.

1. They will all concede that like voting in the GE it doesnt change anything and sink back into their pints.
2. This will be the straw that breaks the camels back and there will be unrest until someone delivers a hard Brexit.

I wonder if Farage will return, seems like he is the true voice of Brexit and anything less is appeasing the minority.

a reply to: sapien82


There was a referendum. We voted by a majority to leave. It is now a question of putting the will of the people into action.

It is the Remainers who are trying to thwart the democratic process. People like Blair.

The farce is that we are having to negotiate with a bunch of unelected EU Commissioners.

I wish Farage would come back.

a reply to: oldcarpy

Yup. Voted remain, disappointed with the referendum results, far more dissapointed in the government's handling of Brexit talks (complete failure to come up with any plan, Davis turning up to the first EU negotiations with two pieces of paper and a clipboard compared to the EU's 30+ ringbinders full, no deal/bad deal as a result).

However it was an open fair vote; holding another referendum would be a waste of time and insult to democracy. It's not like the EU would let us walk back into as good a position as we enjoyed/endured.

Defence looks like becoming a major issue with rumors of Trump pulling out of NATO in coming months and the emerging trade war with US-EU and UK (why has it taken me this long to notice US Orange Juice was the first thing to have tarrifs placed on in response to Trump?).

a reply to: bastion


Agreed. We are lions led by donkeys.

The negotiations have been a complete farce. There has been no plan, no strategy.

a reply to: oldcarpy

are these unelected EU folks not just the same as our unelected lords and bishops!
who we have to watch without question run our nations as they see fit unchallenged

No one has a democracy when there are powers involved the people didn't elect to that position!
We are just at the mercy of the political ruling class and rich corporate powers who run the show !

nah farage can stay where he is !

a reply to: sapien82


The unelected EU folk have more powers than our House of Lords but don't get me started on the HoL as that would be off topic but suffice to say I agree with you.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: sapien82




It is the Remainers who are trying to thwart the democratic process. People like Blair.

.

agreed chukka ,adonis, soros, clegg, cable and many more are undermining democracy and hoping apathy will rain down on the citizens. stuff em and their influence. we need new blood untainted by the eu teat. time to grow beyond the restrictive system the top echelon have imposed on us.

if the eu and it's fifth column within parliament are intent on thwarting the will of the people then the time for handshakes is over. we can still trade with the eu much as we can trade with the rest of the world (once we extricate ourselves from the trade trap) however to be quite clear on the matter a full hard brexit may be the only option to command their attention. a level battlefield should be fundamental to move forward and sadly it seems that by approaching the eu table with compromises we are seen to be begging/weak/chaotic. the eu dandies are lording it and this must end.
what must also end is the current parliamentary system. it is not fit for purpose with members skimming the fat of the land and taking orders from the corporate above the will of the electorate. an insult too far.
f

a reply to: sapien82

I miss those days!

Me too mate.

Don't come here anywhere near as much nowadays, too many absent friends. Some banned, some just drifted away and two of the very best have sadly passed.
I miss those guys immensely.

There was a good bunch of us Brits who used to have some great discussions, just isn't the same any more.

Still some great people here, I just think I've got a bit more cynical and the mantra 'I've seen it all before' seems to be on repeat in my mind constantly.

But every now and then the fire re-ignites and the passion burns as brightly as ever....as it should.

Hopefully I'll be around a bit more often in the near future.

a reply to: sapien82

.....nah farage can stay where he is !

Farage is just a frustrated Tory.

But he has consistently stood up to the EU and at times thoroughly embarrassed them and shown them up for what they are. He is relentless in his attacks on them.....and whether we like it or not he appeals to the 'common man'.

I'd dread to think he was running this country.....but I wouldn't mind him having a large say in Brexit negotiations.

a reply to: oldcarpy

The unelected EU folk have more powers than our House of Lords but don't get me started on the HoL as that would be off topic but suffice to say I agree with you.

First extricate ourselves from the EU then we can go about putting our own house in order by reforming our electoral procedure and parliamentary process.
Maybe then we could think about replacing the EU with something that is fit for purpose free from the globalist autocrats and inherent corruption that it is riddled with at present.

a reply to: fakedirt

Great post.

A good friend of mine who used to visit this site frequently was fond of saying we need a Full System Re-boot......he wasn't wrong.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: oldcarpy

The unelected EU folk have more powers than our House of Lords but don't get me started on the HoL as that would be off topic but suffice to say I agree with you.

First extricate ourselves from the EU then we can go about putting our own house in order by reforming our electoral procedure and parliamentary process.
Maybe then we could think about replacing the EU with something that is fit for purpose free from the globalist autocrats and inherent corruption that it is riddled with at present.

got your six on that freeborn. those that are pushing with intentions of crawling back to the eu should perhaps apply for citizenship elsewhere. I am sure the project will greet them with open arms. meanwhile I liken the uk to a work in progress with opportunity to create lasting social change.
f

a reply to: oldcarpy

That is how democracy works. Brexit won, deal with it.

I'm not arguing with the result. But I do want the people we pay our taxes to deal with the consequences of it properly. This government appear incapable of doing so. I really have doubts the opposition could handle it any better.

To me the problems go way beyond the EU. Forget all the issues that Brexit will create because all it means is another bunch of politicians influenced by their rich sponsors and massive media conglomerates in charge of the nation. Yeh of course you can vote them out can't you?

Actually can you? If you don't live in one of the 'key marginal constituencies' in the UK then your vote tends to means very little. Some of the electorate are more equal than others because this is where the current political battles are fought.

The problem is that current Western economic and political system is slowly crushing all but the top 10% and has been since the 1980s. The rich and powerful keep getting more rich and powerful. Which bankers went to jail after the financial crisis in the late 2000s? One? Two?

Ordinary working people have seen wages squeezed for nearly a decade and young people will probably not be able to look forward to buying a house until they are well into their 30s if they are lucky. There is very little job security any more. Our NHS is on life support.

All Brexit will do is replace one set of problems with yet another one. We need a whole new system not a distraction.

a reply to: mirageman

It seems the one thing we ALL agree on is that we need radical reform of both our electoral and parliamentary procedures etc.
So that leads on to two obvious questions; What system do we want to replace it with and how do we go about doing it?

Its all well and good to whinge and moan about things on the internet but we need acts and deeds!

a reply to: fakedirt

I think the majority of folks who voted to remain in the EU were doing so because leaving would see so many of our protected rights being removed and also , many wanted to remain in the EU so corporations and government couldnt harbour money in offshore accounts!

but yes , you are right, freeborn was right, there needs to be a complete reform of our whole system, new constitution for the people which puts , people, animals and planet before profit !

prevents corporations from abusing us and not paying tax and also prevents government from over reaching into our lives!

do away with the current system, end age old traditional systems and put a new one in place !
hopefully we can do this without too much harm

a reply to: Freeborn

Well beyond a revolution I would like to see a democratic system that stops Media Moguls and Billy Billionaire influencing what happens in government.

I'd like to see democracy more based on 'issues' and less on personalities. Sure vote for a local MP. But base that around the issues we vote for. Nationally we should all vote whether we want more spent on the NHS, taxes on junk food, etc. etc. Give us a list of choices to vote on. Our government should be employed to carry out the wishes of the people. Issues that the people feel are important.

At the moment we have a set menu of two choices (realistically anything else is a protest) and no guarantee the meal will even be delivered. In this reality TV age I think people see 'Boris' joking on TV or Farage enjoying a pint and think 'he's alright I'd vote for him'. But we aren't voting on their personalities and shouldn't let that cloud our judgement.

a reply to: mirageman

Dont you think its time we done away with party politics , and just had them all on the one team with differing view points ?
it seems far too much time is spent arguing who is right , rather than addressing the issue or resolving it !

I dont know i just think far too much time is wasted with "in-fighting" and he said she said !