Historical Jesus found!

Greetings all,

guess who Jesus really was, you certainly have heard of him!
According to the Italian scholar Francesco Carotta the historical Jesus was Caesar!
Carotta: "The Gospel proves to be the history of the Roman Civil war, a 'mis-telling' of the life of Caesar-from the Rubicon to his assassination-mutated into the narrative of Jesus, from the Jordan to his crucifixion. Jesus is a true historical figure, he lived as Gaius Julius Caesar, and resurrected as Divus Julius."
www.prnewswire.com...&EDATE=
www.carotta.de...

Amazing! Any comments?

Andrew

Wasnt the Bible written before Ceaser was born?

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Wasnt the Bible written before Ceaser was born?

My thoughts as well.............

i think it was, well some parts of it anyways

ceasar is a term for the ruler of rome. not a name btw.

He clearly refers to Julius Ceasar, who is definitely a specific individual, and lived from about 100 BC to 44 BC, so clearly pre-dated our (notional?) Jesus.

Thanks for posting this most fascinating new theory. I must look for the book. For anyone who is interested in another theory, try thiering.net..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> thiering.net.... Barbara Theiring is an Australian scholar who believes that Jesus was survived the crucifixion and eventually had 3 kids, and died in Rome around 70 AD or shortly after.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Wasnt the Bible written before Ceaser was born?

Yes centuries before this particular person was born and this doesnt explain how a man could be thought of anything less of a God by performing miracles such as raising the dead and aising from the dead, what about blindness healed and leporsy removed instantly , while medical proof exists some of the parylization could have been cured by stimulating nescessary nerve with electrical or acupressure treatments, the technology wasnt developed enough at the time to provide healing for the lame in the quickness that it was,,,,,,,a man named Ceaser did exist but is limited in mention negative or positive so I find that a conspiracy is unlikely , and what about the acknowledgement give unto ceaser that which is ceasers , these are not the words of a rebel ceaser from inside the roman empire ceasers where and throughout the whole existance of the ceaser title remained inheriantly possesive.

Julius Ceasar CA. 102 BCE to 42 BCE well before the jesus legend.
Gaius Julius was said to be his father.

Just another atheist trying to get rid of our belief in Jesus. Dont worry God Ill never stop beleiving.

Originally posted by Croat56
Just another atheist trying to get rid of our belief in Jesus. Dont worry God Ill never stop beleiving.

AMEN Brother now lets raise the roof and praise him for allowing us not to be blinded by those who would try to mislead us , for Jesus said when a man says to you here is God or there is God believe him not for he shall lead you into damnation.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta

Originally posted by Croat56
Just another atheist trying to get rid of our belief in Jesus. Dont worry God Ill never stop beleiving.

AMEN Brother now lets raise the roof and praise him for allowing us not to be blinded by those who would try to mislead us , for Jesus said when a man says to you here is God or there is God believe him not for he shall lead you into damnation.

Dam straight brother

Words To Live By

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
[...] for Jesus said when a man says to you here is God or there is God believe him not for he shall lead you into damnation.

Indeed, we should never trust those who presume to tell us who God is, because they will surely lead us into damnation.

So I wonder why so many people on ATS make it their business to do precisely that?

One of life's great mysteries, I suppose.

I agree with Jesus wholeheartedly on this point, if indeed he ever said this. But therein lies my question.

Where exactly is this quote from? I don't recognize it, but I'm admittedly not a bible scholar.

I am interested in reading it within its original context, so if you have book/chapter/verse, that would be great. (Thanks in advance)

If it had been someone from the line of the Roman Caesars, don’t you think that Josephus would have known that and mentioned it in his description of Jesus? Josephus was close enough to the line of Roman rulers to be granted the family name of Flavious after all.

SO IMHO is more anti-Christian drivel/propaganda.

I believe that drbryankkruta is misquoting the following:

Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Just putting it into his own words I guess.

The bible mentions the taxation of Augustus Caesar prior to Jesus' birth, and Augustus came after Julius. If Roman history and biblical accounts match up, Augustus and maybe Tiberius would have had been the Roman Heads of state during the early days of Christianity, I may be wrong though.

Originally posted by defcon5

I believe that drbryankkruta is misquoting the following:

Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Just putting it into his own words I guess.

They are related but no I will get the ones I am talking about in a minute

Originally posted by defcon5
If it had been someone from the line of the Roman Caesars, don’t you think that Josephus would have known that and mentioned it in his description of Jesus? Josephus was close enough to the line of Roman rulers to be granted the family name of Flavious after all.

Flavius Josephus was a Roman agent. He worked for Vespasianus and Titus.
Carotta: "Jesus is the Divus Iulius of the Flavians: on behalf of a Flavian—Vespasianus; under supervision of a Flavian—Titus; formed by a Flavian—Flavius Josephus alias Paulus; and opposed by a Flavian—Domitianus. His resistance was in vain, for Domitianus was murdered."

Originally posted by defcon5SO IMHO is more anti-Christian drivel/propaganda.

Why do you think this work is 'anti-Christian'?

At first I thought it was absolute nonsense or a joke, too. But the more I read of it the more I am convinced it is true. Didn't Jesus also say:
"Think not that I am come to bring peace on earth. I came not to bring peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall be they of is own houshold." Matthew 10:34
Doesn't this sound like civil war?

Btw, here is a review of the book:
www.smallkidtime.com...


Andrew

I have read that in the first few centuries AD Julius Caesar was considered a man that became a God and therefore was a deity to many people in the Roman Empire, post Jesus.

Ok lets break this down and compare the two.

First of all, Julias Ceaser was born July 13th, 100 BCE. He came to power as part of the First Triumvarate in 60 BCE along side Crassus and Pompey after 50 years of Civil War occuring from 82-31 BCE. He then took a special military command in Gaul before being asked to step down by the Roman Senate in an attempt to solidify Roman power behind Pompey. Ceaser refused and "crossed the rubicon" with his army, defeated the army of Pompey, and was declared dictator of Rome in 45 BC. He then put through a lot of land and building reforms before being assasinated by the Senate in 44 BCE.

After his death there was once again a power struggle leading the the forming of the Second Triumvarate where power was shared between Octavian (Nephew of Ceaser and his heir,) Antony (Ceasar's ally and assistant,) and Lepidus (the commander of Ceasar's cavalry.) I'm not sure what happened to poor Lepidus but the whole thing ended with the Battle of Actium in 31 BCE where the forces of Octavian and Cleopatra were defeated by those of Octavian. After this point, Octavian was given the title Augustus or the revered one by the Roman Senate in 27 BCE and took the name Ceasar Agustus, the Imperator or Emperor of Rome. He ruled until his death in 14 A.D.

Now, Augustus held 3 census during his reign, one in 28 BCE, one in 8 BCE, and one in 14 AD just before his death. It is stated in the Gospel of Luke that the reason for Joseph traveling with Mary to Bethlehem was to register in one of these censuses. So, how could the "historical" Jesus or Ceasar in your argument have been born at the earliest 16 years after the death of Ceaser and most probably 38 years as the 8 BCE census is somewhat accepted as being the census recorded in Luke.

Next, Jesus was said to live for 33 years (or was it 30 I'm sorry this was the one thing I took off of memory). Ceasar on the other hand lived for 56 years before being assasinated.

Third, Jesus was strictly stated to be of the bloodline of David and a Jew where as Ceasar was a Latin.

Fourth, Ceasar was assasinated by the Senate, literally stabbed in the back. Jesus was crucified. An important distinction here is that when Roman soldiers or other citizens of the Roman Empire were executed, it was normally done by beheading with a sword. This was seen as honorable and was quick and I guess fairly painless in comparison to other methods. It was only non-Roman criminals and slaves that were crucified. For example, during the slave revolt led by Spartacus in 73 BCE 6000 of his followers were crucified lining the main roads of Rome as a warning and deterrent to others.

Hope this helps.

I had originally, for a moment, thought that this was related to the Pisonian Conspiracy, but apparently its not.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Wasnt the Bible written before Ceaser was born?

No, the early copies of it are from somethign like the second century. Gaius was long since dead.

The idea is silly, even outside of the references to Caesar in it and the governor pilate, especially since some of the gospels are supposedly written in aramaic, not latin, and only some are even written in greek. I also find it hard to beleive that the 'retelling' was completely misunderstood even in its own time, and contains no real information about caesar.

krazyivan
ceasar is a term for the ruler of rome. not a name btw.

Caesar is a name. Gaius became so famous, and octavian too, that the name of ther family became associated with 'ruler'. Caesar in rome (pronounced not see zar, but kay zer'), Kaiser in germany, Tzar in russia, even possibly Shah in persia. His trinomial was 'Gaius Julius Caesar', something like 'Personal Name, Family Name, 'clan' Name'.

alexofsky
Barbara Theiring

Intersting, I hadn't thought anyone outside of david christiansian (or some such) took her very seriously. She's of the 'pesher' method fame, and I think she also promotes the idea of the dss 'teacher of righetousness' as being John the Baptist, and of JtheB being the messiah or some such.

twitchy
The bible mentions the taxation of Augustus Caesar prior to Jesus' birth

Augusust Casear or just Caesaer became titles tho. The Caesar of jesus's time is, I had thought, well after Augustus. Perhaps the Caesar of his childhood was Claudius, or Tiberius. I'd be surprised if it was Octavian himself. I get the impression that there are two 'timelines' for the apostolic period, or at least that of revelation itselfs, one with nero as emperor and the other with dominitian as emperor.

The jewish war is in 66 AD. That makes the emperor of the jesus ministry as no later than nero.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I had originally, for a moment, thought that this was related to the Pisonian Conspiracy, but apparently its not.

I usually dont say this to you but damn good post man

I have one thing to add. How many ceasers were crucified? None that I am aware of. Most died from poisoning or physical attacks from political adversaries.