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Whats the difference where one pays - private insurance (with deductibles/denial) or taxes?

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posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 06:53 AM
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I decided to make this thread as this a question has bugged me for a while.

Firstly, I will tell how things are in my country. Every month about 9% of my taxes go to universal healthcare, more from me as I am smoker and drink every once in a while (these sin taxes go to healthcare fund as well). There are some private clinics, although every hospital is owned by the government, which means the doctors are government employees. Their salaries are on level with specialists salaries in private industries. Whatever doctor one needs to see, the maximum pay is about 7 dollars (only first seeing). The waiting times are reasonable, depending on urgency. For example, I had bad knee injury once. I had to wait 2 weeks and the doctor who did the surgery, is the doctor who treats national teams, olympic winners, in other words highly skilled specialist. Unemployed people, who are not actively searching job (registered as unemployed, who need to see unemployment office once in a while and prove they are searching for job) only get healthcare from emergency service for 7 dollars, for other doctors they have to pay.

When I look at American system, I truly do not understand it. The insurance companies- the middle men, take extreme amounts. The insurance does not cover everything, there are high deductibles and what is even worse, one might even get denial by insurance. I have lived in US for some months. A few stitches would have cost me 700 dollars. An acquaintance of mine got into car accident and owed 80,000 dollars. In the end, when one has issue, the costs can go extreme.After all, health care is one of the areas which causes the most individual bankruptcies.

What I do not understand is the hatred for government services compared to private ones. In universal healthcare, the doctors get paid reasonably well, everything is covered, while on the other end, the private insurance has high monthly pay, high deductibles and they can even turn down your insurance claim. I have no statistics, but in the end,there is probably large amount of Americans, who pay 9 or even more % of their salary to insurance, but still you have the deductibles, everything is not covered and there is even possibly of getting denied for insurance you paid for. In the end, whether something happens or not, the cost is probably in even higher than 9%. If something happens, depending on one´ salary it is very likely to be higher that, significantly higher with the possibility of personal bankruptcy.

In my eyes, in the end, private insurance is likely to cost far more than 9% of one´s salary, especially when emergency happens and deductibles come in +possibility of having one´s claims denied. Why risk it...

I personally believe healthy society is a better society. Not being able to see a doctor when problems arise and just trying to walk it through leads to loss of productivity at work and when condition goes worse, it is likely to cost much more in the end than treating it immediately, if not suffering till the end of life because the person saw doctor too late.

edit on 7-7-2018 by Cabin because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 07:00 AM
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Universal healthcare is something we clearly need as the rich seem they'd rather try and profit off the society crumbling around them rather than maintain it's well being as well as keep the truly good health care accessible only to them.

Obamacare was not universal health care which is why it needed to die. Unfortunately universal healthcare won't come from either the republicans or the dems at this point.

The republicans want Rich Care, and the Dems want Obama care which is just as bad.
edit on 7/7/2018 by Puppylove because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 07:20 AM
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a reply to: Cabin

That was a PROMISE from trump, just like so many others. He said He had a "much, much better plan! So much better than failing Obamacare" That was clearly an empty campaign promise. With all of these tariffs going into affect, we are all going to have a much higher cost of living. Good luck absorbing those cost and paying for trumpcare, which is apparently nothing.








edit on 7-7-2018 by kurthall because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 07:20 AM
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a reply to: Cabin

Easy..

With insurance companies you have a parasite taking .30 off every dollar spent on healthcare THAT IS NOT PREFORMING A HEALCARE RELATED FUNCTION!

They are a middleman taking 1/3 as a few to paper push..


That’s why every other modern country on the planet has dropped them.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 07:28 AM
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a reply to: Cabin

Before Obamacare my premiums were either paid by my employer or I paid half, which was roughly 2% of my take home. My deductible was 2.5% of my yearly check and the years I did not have to use it was just extra money.

Under Obamacare my premiums went up to roughly 10% of my monthly, employers were priced out of the market and my co-pay and deductible were roughly another 10% yearly.

As far as taxes go, I am already paying over 35% of my check between state, federal, property taxes, sales taxes, use taxes, etc. Then add all the taxes placed on goods that raise their prices, taxes on utilities, services, etc, etc, and nauseum and I am pretty sure I am already over 50% of my check going to my government.

So to give them more for something that they are just going to overspend on to give me a worse service seems insane.

If we want to talk about universal health care, great.

Then my government needs to find a way to tax me 15% less somewhere else.




posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 07:30 AM
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originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Cabin

Easy..

With insurance companies you have a parasite taking .30 off every dollar spent on healthcare THAT IS NOT PREFORMING A HEALCARE RELATED FUNCTION!

They are a middleman taking 1/3 as a few to paper push..


That’s why every other modern country on the planet has dropped them.


So giving health care to the government will result in less bureaucracy and more efficiency?

Bwahahahahaha!!!!!

You progressives crack me up.




posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 07:32 AM
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a reply to: Cabin

There is one option and one only.

With private insurance there are ideally more options and more ways those options can be packaged together.

Look at the ACA plans for an example - everyone had to pay for both prostate care and maternity care which is nuts because men don't need one and never will and women don't need the other and never will. Government health care works this way because everyone pays for everything for everyone. Some say that makes things cheaper but it doesn't.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 08:04 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Doesn't matter if the only worthwhile options are affordable by the rich. So basically, Rich Care, cause the health of society as a whole isn't a basic concern to maintaining a working functional society.

Insurance as a concept needs to die, healthcare as a private entity, needs to die, good healthcare for all needs to be a right and a basic part of a society that's expected and maintained by that society.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 08:13 AM
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a reply to: Cabin

Your question presumes that all other factors are equal; that the same money paid to one gets the same quality of care as another... and that those are our only two options. I would posit that those are not our only options, and that we do in fact have even better options.

The biggest problem with our healthcare system is that government has taken too much control over our healthcare, imposed too many regulations and restrictions on our access to healthcare, and allowed greed and avarice to determine what we get and by who and when and how, etc. And the end result is that the healthcare we are given is what makes the most money for the providers, but NOT what is best for our health.

And insurance is not the appropriate approach to healthcare. Insurance is for "if" situations, not "when" situations. Further, when one is seriously ill and unable to work, one is also unable to pay those insurance premiums. Not very practical or realistic. To that extent, HMOs were a better working model. But our best option is to have both a taxpayer funded universal option for all, and a private paid option for those so inclined, along with educating and empowering people to take better care of themselves -- both in maintaining health, and in treating and nursing their own health issues.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 08:40 AM
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The biggest problem with our healthcare system is that government has taken too much control over our healthcare, i


The largest 'private' insurer is the United States federal government with over 120 million people on their insurance rolls( medicare/Medicaid)

What do people think was going to happen when the state has the largest monopoly on it ?



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 09:07 AM
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a reply to: Cabin

In the US we'd like to get Universal healthcare...but don't want to pay for it...(I could use universal for me and my family)



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 09:19 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea


‘But our best option is to have both a taxpayer funded universal option for all, and a private paid option for those so inclined, along with educating and empowering people to take better care of themselves -- both in maintaining health, and in treating and nursing their own health issues.”

And therein lies the problem. I’d wager there are thousands of Americans on these boards alone who will maintain to their dying breath that it’s their right to smoke, drink, use drugs, routinely engage in proven risky behaviors, etc., regardless of who pays for their healthcare throughout their lives. Guarantee all these behaviors will permanently cease and you would instantly have everyone on board (except insurance companies) for universal care. As long as my money would be going for healthcare for those who intentionally destroy their health, I will never support universal healthcare.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 09:39 AM
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a reply to: Lab4Us

And who among us doesn't engage in risky behavior? There is risk with everything.... Maybe you drive more miles than me, thus putting you at greater risk for a vehicle accident... should I be complaining that I'm subsidizing your risky lifestyle? Maybe you like running, thus putting you at greater risk for injury... should I be complaining that I'm subsidizing your risky lifestyle? Maybe you eat more salad than me, thus putting you at greater risk for listeria poisoning... Maybe you have food allergies that I don't... This can go on and on and on just like the song that never ends...

Shall no one do anything unless absolutely necessary for their survival because there is an element of risk? Or shall we acknowledge and accept that there will always be risks in life, that everyone needs healthcare at some point for something, and make sure that care is readily available and accessible?

Most of all, I don't want anyone deciding that this person deserves healthcare but that person doesn't deserve healthcare. If that's the best we can do, then government needs to get totally and completely out of the healthcare business and let everyone fend for themselves. Survival of the fittest. At least then we all have a fighting chance.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 09:51 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

That seemed to be a pretty disingenuous argument you provided. I noticed you avoided discussing the smoking, drinking, drug use, and I’m pretty sure you understand risky behavior isn’t eating salad.

Your argument seems the same as other arguments the left and those that want free stuff paid for by others make - ignore reality. If that wasn’t your intent, I apologize, however please don’t pretend you don't understand what I meant by risky behaviors.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 10:04 AM
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a reply to: Cabin

Obamacare was purposefully designed to fail, and wreck private insurance companies. There was no sociopolitical will in the US, to either abandon a system that most people in the middle classes were fairly happy with, or to allow single payer healthcare.

It would easily be solved, by instituting a HSA ( Health Savings Account) for everyone funded directly and with a card that only works for medical supplies and care. Out of that, they could shop for actual catastrophic insurance and shop across state lines for it. Anything they don't spend, they keep. And once it reaches some level of worth to cover normal costs, it could be invested and grow until retirement.

Then the actual consumers could decide for themselves whether to spend 150 bucks for an office visit...80 bucks for a Walmart clinic visit...or maybe just a bottle of cough syrup. The actual market value of services would be quickly reasserted.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 10:11 AM
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I wonder if the hundreds of billions in welfare paid yearly to corporations would make much difference to the quality of a nation's healthcare.

Probably not. The real problem is probably those pesky addict drinkers and smokers, with their heavily taxed products, living day to day without so much as a Swiss bank account.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 10:22 AM
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Insurance companies bank on taking more money in than they pay out. Insurance in the US is a necessity because healthcare costs are high....even though you still pay a healthy amount out of pocket it isn't the supposed full amount.

it's circular....kind of like working harder to make more money to buy more coc aine.

Another argument will be RESEARCH. How does that get funded if not by the private sector?

Government regulation in the US is just a mess as well.

What do you do with the sick and elderly?

What would have to happen is that the prices for healthcare would have to come in line with what the median salary can afford...or something like that..and...without government regulation. Then maybe we can afford healthcare AS WE NEED IT not pay for it all the time...as in Insurance premiums. Make healthcare competitive so that the population has a REAL choice of who to see.

Make the healthcare system fight for your money and not just take advantage of need for healthcare.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 10:40 AM
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You also need fat people to pay more. Pay universal health care tax in person with a scale there....don’t trim your fat,then the government doesn’t trim the fat off your tax bill.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 10:52 AM
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Of course, taxes are also involuntary and compelled too.

No one forces you to pay an insurance company ... or at least they didn't until Obamacare.



posted on Jul, 7 2018 @ 10:57 AM
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a reply to: Cabin

The problem is Universal insurance is not public healthcare. The 2 are conflated together. I personally want public insurance with private healthcare.



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