Amesbury: Two collapse near Russian spy poisoning site

I was reading an article on Zero Hedge about this incident. Someone in the comments offered a theory I think we need to consider: what if these two were the people who poisoned the Skirpals a few months ago, and they got the poison on themselves while disposing of the evidence, or possibly while preparing for another attack? If they really are a couple of druggies/drunks as reported, then they're the sort of disposable goons that would be sent on such a mission.

Of course, that would lead away from Russia, so nobody is even going to consider this idea.

a reply to: AndyFromMichigan

Preparing for another attack makes no sense with the supposed story, unless Salisbury is full of ex Russian spy's.

Getting rid of the evidence I could entertain, but if they were good enough to complete the hit, without getting any on themselves, held on to it for this long without exposing themselves I would be surprised if they managed to expose themselves as soon as they tried to get rid of it.

Stranger things have happened though!

a reply to: Dem0nc1eaner

If the original poisoning was a false flag, then someone like this pair would be who they'd send to carry it out. In the real world, they don't send James Bond or Jason Bourne to assassinate someone. They send some doofus they don't care about, and who they can plausibly deny any connection to.

a reply to: AndyFromMichigan


I disagree with the idea that these two would be used for anything much.
The man is a junkie from what I have read and the woman (RIP) was an alcoholic.
Both notoriously unreliable sections of society.

I think the idea that they came across the discarded container to be the most plausible.

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos

originally posted by: tommyjo

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos

originally posted by: tommyjo
Sky News are reporting that friends of the couple claimed that the critically ill pair found something in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens in Salisbury. The gardens are just a few streets away from the area where the Skripals were found on the bench.

Map link to Queen Elizabeth Gardens, Salisbury

Apparently the couple had a picnic in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens down by the river.

Guardian news article

So again eating or being by the river. Doesn't that river feed down from the bio lab? Could it be possible that it is toxic Cyanobacteria from algae blooms, maybe inadvertently weaponised algae blooms from lab run off, got on their hands and then contaminated them when they ate their picnic?

Or they simply found the dispenser/canister discarded in the gardens. It was assessed that the Novichok was dispensed in a gel to target the Skripals. Either the Skripal gel dispenser or another gel dispenser disposed of.

Wasn't it reported that the Novichok-like nerve agent from the Skripal case was in powder form? Wasn't it also established they got it from their door handle?
Again this whole thing feels off.

Reported as in a gel form.

originally posted by: tommyjo

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos

originally posted by: tommyjo

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos

originally posted by: tommyjo
Sky News are reporting that friends of the couple claimed that the critically ill pair found something in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens in Salisbury. The gardens are just a few streets away from the area where the Skripals were found on the bench.

Map link to Queen Elizabeth Gardens, Salisbury

Apparently the couple had a picnic in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens down by the river.

Guardian news article

So again eating or being by the river. Doesn't that river feed down from the bio lab? Could it be possible that it is toxic Cyanobacteria from algae blooms, maybe inadvertently weaponised algae blooms from lab run off, got on their hands and then contaminated them when they ate their picnic?

Or they simply found the dispenser/canister discarded in the gardens. It was assessed that the Novichok was dispensed in a gel to target the Skripals. Either the Skripal gel dispenser or another gel dispenser disposed of.

Wasn't it reported that the Novichok-like nerve agent from the Skripal case was in powder form? Wasn't it also established they got it from their door handle?
Again this whole thing feels off.

Reported as in a gel form.

I remember it was initially reported as a powder, then a liquid, then it eventually was changed to a gel on the door handle.
Science Direct

Forms Novichok agents may be dispersed as an ultra-fine powder as opposed to a gas or a vapour.

BBC UK

OPWC Director General Ahmet Uzumcu:

Mr Uzumcu also said the nerve agent was in liquid form and could have been applied with an aerosol spray or, "if you take the necessary measures, you could use it as a liquid". "One thing, perhaps, which is important to note is that the nerve agent seems to be very persistent," he added. "It's not affected by weather conditions. That explains, actually, that they were able to identify it after a considerable time lapse. We understand it was also of high purity."

What are Novichok agents? The name Novichok means "newcomer" in Russian, and applies to a group of nerve agents developed by the Soviet Union in the 1970s and 1980s. Novichok's existence was revealed by chemist Dr Vil Mirzayanov in the 1990s, via Russian media. He says the nerve agents were designed to escape detection by international inspectors. Novichok agents are liquids, although others are thought to exist in solid form and could be dispersed as an ultra-fine powder.

No gel mentioned from the Director General of the OPCW. Also noted he said it is not affected by the weather conditions (e.g. rain, of which there was a lot) yet the government has been, and still is, saying it breaks down in water and that just washing your clothes or wiping things down with baby wipes is effective for clean up!

Daily Echo

What could the item be? Speculation over what the item is has ranged from a tainted cigarette butt to a discarded container like a phial or syringe used to transport the nerve agent for the attack on Sergei and Yulia Skripal. What do experts suspect? After some four months passing between the incidents some experts believe it would be unlikely the poison would have remained so potent if it has been left exposed to the elements. One expert told the BBC it was more likely the poison had stayed protected in a closed space. However other experts say the nerve agent was designed to be persistent and not break down. How did the victims become contaminated? Nerve agents, including Novichok, can be inhaled as a fine powder, absorbed through the skin or ingested.

The above article mentions it could possibly be from a tainted cigarette butt. This is not even logical, because it if had been, where is the dead person who lit the cigarette in the first place?

Science. How Stuff Works

Novichok compounds are also designed to defeat protective gear. The compounds are thought to take the form of a very fine powder, though much of the specifics of the poison remains secret. The Skripals, reports say, were infected with Novichok spread on a door knob. "These toxicants, they interfere or inhibit or stop the body from breaking down one of the essential neurotransmitters, acetylcholine," says Ziad Kazzi, an emergency physician and toxicologist, and associate professor of emergency medicine at Emory University in Atlanta. "The thing about Novichok is it's very potent, so a very small amount can cause this toxidrome and cause death." When inhaled or absorbed through the skin, these agents affect muscles and nerves throughout the body, and vastly over-stimulate glands. "People die for a few reasons," Kazzi says. "They die because they can't breathe ... or because they have so many secretions in their lungs ... that they can't oxygenate or ventilate." From the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons: Muscular paralysis caused by nerve agents also affects the respiratory muscles. Nerve agents also affect the respiratory centre of the central nervous system. The combination of these two effects is the direct cause of death. Consequently, death caused by nerve agents is a kind of death by suffocation. Symptoms, which can appear as quickly as 30 seconds,

Still no mention of a gel here. So where did the gel idea come from? If it only takes a tiny amount (50 - 100 micrograms) and can act as quickly as 30 seconds, how is it possible for the Skripals to get the gel from their door handle, go for lunch etc for several hours before the nerve agent kicks in?

I still say something is totally wrong with this picture and we are being lied to, most likely to blame Russia in the political game of chess that is being played and ramp up the fear on UK soil.

a reply to: CthulhuMythos


Yes, there has been a bit of speculation but so what?

Lots of rain? It rained for the first time in weeks on end last Friday here in Salisbury. We have had a very extended heatwave with 30 degrees heat.

So you don't think Russia plays "political chess"?

a reply to: oldcarpy
The rain came after the Skripal incident. Of course Russia plays political chess, but what advantage does an attack on UK soil give them, especially at a time where the west is trying so hard to paint them as the enemy at every turn. Also why would you have a failed assassination attempt with breadcrumbs leading right back to you, that also is not a good chess move.

a reply to: CthulhuMythos


Remember the Litvinenko case? Russia left a radioactive "breadcrumb" trail all over London. The reason was to send a message to traitors and potential traitors.

Apparently this lady found a perfume bottle containing Novichock and sprayed it onto both wrists:

BBC News

a reply to: oldcarpy

Whilst that is possible, from what I have read the enquiry was as woolly as the Skripal case in saying it was "probably" ordered by Putin. The same finger pointing with the same types of accusations but still having to say "probably" in the report, because they don't actually know for sure, OR, they know it wasn't but want to frame Russia. Let's face it, the info we were getting then was coming from the same sources as the info and breadcrum trail we are being fed now. For all we know both incidents were a false flag to blame Russia/Putin, who still deny everything. Not like our government and news media have never lied to us to push forward an agenda before, is it?

Now two more non-Russia related people are involved, drug addicts, maybe thought of as dispensable by those who want to have actual death in order to make it real and more fearful and maybe even more believable, since so many were skeptical of the Skripal incident. Sadly those in charge and those in positions of power in our country can no longer be trusted, from the PM to the Police to the news media.

Do I sound overly harsh/critical/cynical/skeptical?

originally posted by: oldcarpy
Apparently this lady found a perfume bottle containing Novichock and sprayed it onto both wrists:

BBC News

Now that is interesting. So it is being billed as the same batch of Novichok as the Skripals were hit with. But you can't spray a gel through a perfume bottle nozzle, it's too viscous. So is the gel the lie, or the perfume the lie?
If the perfume is correct, and it was sprayed on both wrists, given that Novichok is the most deadly substance ever, even in very tiny pinhead sized doses, how come she didn't drop dead in her tracks? She was found in her flat outwith the city and was still alive hours later in hospital where she died of a heart attack. The ambulance crew thought it was an overdose and didn't decontaminate themselves after dealing with them. Haven't heard of any of them succumbing to Novichok.
He is remembering bits of what happened, but can't remember where the perfume was found/sprayed, but it has been assumed it was near where the Skripals were found. This is all such speculative BS.
He remembers an ammonia smell, yet real Novichok is supped to be almost undetectable.

Can you see why I am skeptical now? Next stop, he is squirrelled away to a 'safe house' where nobody will ever see him again, and only news of what he / the authorities want you to hear will be announced, even if he is no longer alive at the time. Not heard from the Skripals much since their recovery, have we? What really happened to them?

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos
from what I have read the enquiry was as woolly as the Skripal case in saying it was "probably" ordered by Putin.

Perhaps you should read the Litvinenko Inquiry, which is quite thorough and not a bit "woolly". The poisoners have been well rewarded in Russia by Putin.

Litvinenko Inquiry

10.15 When Mr Lugovoy poisoned Mr Litvinenko, it is probable that he did so under the direction of the FSB. I would add that I regard that as a strong probability. I have found that Mr Kovtun also took part in the poisoning. I conclude therefore that he was also acting under FSB direction, possibly indirectly through Mr Lugovoy but probably to his knowledge.
10.16 The FSB operation to kill Mr Litvinenko was probably approved by Mr Patrushev and also by President Putin.

a reply to: CthulhuMythos


There was some speculation about a gel, so what? Where are you getting your "facts" from?

Why do you think nobody will ever hear from him again?

Why are you not skeptical about Russias blatant lies?

Here is the latest from the BBC. Looks like the perps have been identified by CCTV footage. Developing news though.

BBC News

Look forward to the inevitable "Not buying it" brigade's comments.

However, former Russian agent turned traitor poisoned by Russian nerve agent by Russians. Seems pretty clear, no?

a reply to: paraphi

One of many recent assasinations by Russia in the UK that leaves a trail of breadcrumbs. Putin's fiercest rival Nikolai Glushkov was killed in London eight days after the Skirpal poisoning, his boss had been assasinated earlier. He was on the Kremlin's hitlist according to Russian State Media and was strangled to death before it was made to look like a hanging. www.telegraph.co.uk...

www.bloomberg.com...

-----
It was just before 10 p.m. on Feb. 12, Boris Karpichkov’s 59th birthday, when the former KGB agent got an unexpected call at his home in the U.K. It was a Russian secret service friend phoning covertly from mainland Europe to warn him of a hit list with eight names on it. Karpichkov, who’d defected to Britain in 1998, was on the list. So was Sergei Skripal, another ex-Russian double agent.
-----------

Sky news just announced that the Police investigating think that Dawn Sturgess thought the bottle they recovered from the home was perfume and sprayed it n herself.


This goes against the prevailing theory about it being a gel or powder I guess.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: CthulhuMythos


There was some speculation about a gel, so what? Where are you getting your "facts" from?

Why do you think nobody will ever hear from him again?

Why are you not skeptical about Russias blatant lies?

It wasn't jus 'some' speculation about a gel. There were lots of reports saying it was a gel. Try a Google search with gel and Skripal to see how many sites were reporting this, and reporting it as fact, when indeed it was and still is total speculation. I read a lot and watch UK Column.

Well if the official story is less than 100% and he lives to tell the tale, I would say the ones running the show would not want him blab bib the truth. Maybe they will just give him a big pay out to tow the official line, or maybe they will hit him up with an overdose of his substance of choice and deem it death by misadventure. Who knows, but you can't say that is beyond possibility. Thinking of Dr. David Kelly here.

Not so skeptical about Russia lying because there is little if anything to gain if they did this. Seems like there is a lot to lose over this for Russia. BUT who does gain over this? Hmmm let me think, UK government for one. Great distraction from the Brexit fiasco, makes Russia look like the bad guy ( and the west has been trying to stick it to Russia and get the rest of the planet onside too so they can boot boy their way into Syria and depose Assad and put in their own Rothschild puppet) and puts the fear porn on the UK public thus gaining more control, destroying more freedoms and possibly pushing the general public to beg for strict intervention, where there would have been a total stooshie about intervention before hand. It's the old create the problem, sit back and watch the chaos and panic then offer the solution that would only now be accepted as a solution, the very end point that was wanted in the first place, but would never have been accepted otherwise.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos
from what I have read the enquiry was as woolly as the Skripal case in saying it was "probably" ordered by Putin.

Perhaps you should read the Litvinenko Inquiry, which is quite thorough and not a bit "woolly". The poisoners have been well rewarded in Russia by Putin.

Litvinenko Inquiry

10.15 When Mr Lugovoy poisoned Mr Litvinenko, it is probable that he did so under the direction of the FSB. I would add that I regard that as a strong probability. I have found that Mr Kovtun also took part in the poisoning. I conclude therefore that he was also acting under FSB direction, possibly indirectly through Mr Lugovoy but probably to his knowledge.
10.16 The FSB operation to kill Mr Litvinenko was probably approved by Mr Patrushev and also by President Putin.

Looks pretty woolly to me, seeing 1x probable, 1x strong probability, 1x possibly indirectly, 2x probably, and that is just in 10.15 & 10.16. What happened to the, here is the undeniable 100% proof that 'insert name' did it and here is the evidence to support that?

Enquiries are only as honest as those that head them and how much of a white wash the truth is given.

a reply to: CthulhuMythos

What is UK Column not heard of it before? Reports are generally Chinese whispers in the early days, rarely turn out to be accurate.

The David Kelly case is a good one (very rare known by public) but I can confirm via family members who were set up by UK gov, my Uncle was illegally imprisoned for selling weapons to Saddam on behalf of UK gov and MI5, MI6 and CIA: www.independent.co.uk... he was assassinated via suffocation in his car a few years back despite no history or mental illness and my Dad seeing him the night before and he was in high spirits about to sail the world. Wrote to the original MPs who released him from illegal imprisonment but they wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

Personally overseen Gov clear ups of 'wild' NBC stuff as a press officer (Plutonium in an unsecured public area)- the press and public never get to hear anything about it - there's layer upon layer of cover stories and pre briefing by intel services in genuine leaks to make sure no one realises how terrible standards are and how regular an occurrence it is.

That these cases were reported on and made public makes me 99.9% certain it's not a UK gov job. They run a much tighter ship and any deviation from their line means spending a few days/weeks in a shipping container that's been declared the province of a country where torture is legal with some enforcer/meat head types (equivalent of UFC fighter in the US).