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Let's stop the nonsense - There are only two genders

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posted on Jul, 2 2018 @ 10:28 PM
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originally posted by: Buvvy
a reply to: LesMisanthrope


There are many ways that a baby can be born “inter-sexed”. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY.


I explained my opinion of these rare cases as part of my OP. However, the vast majority do not fall into any in-between or undefined category.

"I am not going to comment on the rare cases where gender is not well defined at birth. They can define themselves however they choose."


edit on 2-7-2018 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 2 2018 @ 10:37 PM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

Happens more often than you realize. One in 1,500 births. With an average of 4 million babies born per year in the USA (10,958 per day) that means 7.3 intersexed babies are born in the USA each day (2665 per year in the USA).

“Intersex is a socially constructed category that reflects real biological variation. To better explain this, we can liken the sex spectrum to the color spectrum. There’s no question that in nature there are different wavelengths that translate into colors most of us see as red, blue, orange, yellow. But the decision to distinguish, say, between orange and red-orange is made only when we need it—like when we’re asking for a particular paint color. Sometimes social necessity leads us to make color distinctions that otherwise would seem incorrect or irrational, as, for instance, when we call certain people “black” or “white” when they’re not especially black or white as we would otherwise use the terms.

In the same way, nature presents us with sex anatomy spectrums. Breasts, penises, clitorises, scrotums, labia, gonads—all of these vary in size and shape and morphology. So-called “sex” chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too. But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order.

So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins.
Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex. Humans decide whether a person with XXY chromosomes or XY chromosomes and androgen insensitivity will count as intersex.“. Source - www.isna.org...



posted on Jul, 2 2018 @ 10:47 PM
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a reply to: Buvvy




So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins. Humans decide.


Oh come on. Does it produce sperm or eggs? Nature has had this figured out since the dawn of mankind. Intersex is a birth defect.



posted on Jul, 2 2018 @ 10:57 PM
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Ok - you seem to have this all sorted out.

My question to you is?...

There are 2,665 intersexed (in your words birth defect) babies born per year. These infants are otherwise perfectly healthy individuals.

Which bathroom do you want these kiddos to use when they are finally old enough to go to the bathroom without Mom and Dad taking them?

a reply to: new_here



posted on Jul, 2 2018 @ 11:24 PM
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originally posted by: Buvvy
a reply to: LesMisanthrope


“There are many ways that a baby can be born “inter-sexed”. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY.” www.isna.org...


Very true. These are all biological characteristics of people born a certain way, not decided through whim and fancy.



posted on Jul, 2 2018 @ 11:37 PM
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a reply to: Buvvy

This OP wasn't directed at the group you are alluding too.

They can use whatever restroom they desire. Before someone made an issue out of bathroom usage I honestly believe bathroom choice was a non issue for everyone including Transsexual and the inter-sexed.

Why are you turning this thread into a medical debate? In the OP I clearly stated that the inter-sexed should have the right to chose whatever label they want.

But they should also be entitled to choosing no lable. They can be fluid in their identity if they prefer.

This post stands against the need for anyone to label themselves for any reason that is not biological in nature. Because psychologically we are much more fluid than rigid lables. Everytime someone feels they don't quite fall into any preexisting label we create a new label. This is nonsense and illogical in my opinion.

Especially for children whose minds can change many times as they go through adolescence.

Why can't we just be who we are? If I am attracted to men I guarantee I will notice men who are attracted to me without the need for either of us to label ourselves. If I am attracted to a woman the same understanding applies.

We need to allow ourselves to be who we are in the moment without trying to define every moment. We argue over lables. I prefer we put lables aside and just be friends who can express ourselves in whatever way feels appropriate at the time.

Forcing children to chose a label is completely unecessary. It is much better to tell them the truth. We change as we go through life and wherever those changes lead us is ok.



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 12:18 AM
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originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Isurrender73

Let’s stop the nonsense there is no God. So you can stop using that as an excuse to tell people what to do and how to be.


Prove there is no God.


Prove there is one.



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:24 AM
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originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Buvvy

This OP wasn't directed at the group you are alluding too.

They can use whatever restroom they desire. Before someone made an issue out of bathroom usage I honestly believe bathroom choice was a non issue for everyone including Transsexual and the inter-sexed.
Why are you turning this thread into a medical debate? In the OP I clearly stated that the inter-sexed should have the right to chose whatever label they want.

But they should also be entitled to choosing no lable. They can be fluid in their identity if they prefer.

This post stands against the need for anyone to label themselves for any reason that is not biological in nature. Because psychologically we are much more fluid than rigid lables. Everytime someone feels they don't quite fall into any preexisting label we create a new label. This is nonsense and illogical in my opinion.

Especially for children whose minds can change many times as they go through adolescence.

Why can't we just be who we are? If I am attracted to men I guarantee I will notice men who are attracted to me without the need for either of us to label ourselves. If I am attracted to a woman the same understanding applies.

We need to allow ourselves to be who we are in the moment without trying to define every moment. We argue over lables. I prefer we put lables aside and just be friends who can express ourselves in whatever way feels appropriate at the time.

Forcing children to chose a label is completely unecessary. It is much better to tell them the truth. We change as we go through life and wherever those changes lead us is ok.


In particular I don't agree with that comment. Sources also say otherwise:
One example:
How most states allow discrimination against LGBTQ people


In most states, it's legal for an employer to fire workers simply because they are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender.

The cause isn't a religious freedom law, like the one that sparked a major battle over LGBTQ rights in Indiana in 2015. Instead, most states' civil rights laws don't explicitly protect LGBTQ people from discrimination in the workplace, housing, or restaurants and other places that serve the general public.

More



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 05:14 AM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

Here is an interesting case:

In this documentary, there is a person born a hermaphrodite. The doctor decided that he/she is best off being a woman and modified the genitals to be like a woman. However later 'she' started dating a woman and having a 'lesbian' affair and later realized he identified himself as a man; that is felt, he was a man. (And he makes a convincing man btw..)

There is also a person in there who identified himself as a woman (went transgender woman) but actually likes women.

Anyway point being the physical gender is not always the gender people biologically identify as. Perhaps there are other biological factors that determine what sex people identify as, that is independent from the genitals or physical sex.

Anyway some interesting points in this documentary, and explanation of the biology behind what determines the sex @ 11:35




posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 05:22 AM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

You can blame the government for this,most rediculus thing I have ever heard,the pure stupidity of thse people,like teaching kids core math,why? to confuse them,it's a government attempt at a take over,pigs in a pen



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 06:51 AM
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originally posted by: Buvvy
Ok - you seem to have this all sorted out.

My question to you is?...

There are 2,665 intersexed (in your words birth defect) babies born per year. These infants are otherwise perfectly healthy individuals.

Which bathroom do you want these kiddos to use when they are finally old enough to go to the bathroom without Mom and Dad taking them?

a reply to: new_here



Honey if trans people were all medically diagnosed intersexed, the conversation would be a helluva lot different. Trans people need to quit co-opting the intersex condition. So, all intersex conditions aside, if there was a blood test, or brain scan proof, any physical evidence at all! But there isn't. The sole basis of trans is "I feel..." or "I want to be..." Sorry but "I feel like..." does not trump biological reality.

I mean, just spend 10 minutes on this sub reddit and you will see just how mentally disturbed some of these people are. They need intensive therapy, not people to accept their delusions. It's really sad, and one day the world will look back on this situation as a prime example of the dangers of Internet Social Contagion.



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 08:27 AM
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a reply to: dreamingawake

I appreciate your feedback because it made me look into transgender harassment. Unfortunately your link had nothing to do with bathroom usage.

But after doing some research it appears that it is much more common than I thought for transgender people to be harassed for bathroom usage.

I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this. I believe that everyone should have the right to not be harassed because of how they identify sexually.

At the same time I understand how uncomfortable it could make someone to use a restroom and have someone of the opposite sex use the same restroom simply because of the clothes they wear and how they feel about themselves.

Personally I side with the transsexual community especially in use of restrooms sense most multi-person restrooms have seperate stalls. In most cases I don't think anyone's privacy is truly at risk.

As with other forms of segregation laws against discrimination tend to have a long term impact on how the segregated parties are accepted by the community. So it would make sense that we try using the law to mitigate the problems associated with discrimination.

The problem I think comes in because transgender segregation is not like the other forms of segregation. In no other instance do you have someone claiming to be what they physically are not.

With that being said the law should protect transgenders from discrimination sense it is the first step in acknowledging the condition. But as with other forms of discrimination the law is not likely to have any immediate impact on the harassment of the transgender.

I think some of the onus is on the transgender community and how they perceive themselves. As a child I was harassed for being a feminine male. Several people questioned my sexual orientation and I was approached often by gay men who thought I was gay.

At first I was bothered by the harassment. But my mother taught me to be me and not let other people dictate how I feel about myslef. And that whatever I believed about myself trumped whatever others believed about me. Why does anyone dictate their lives based on what someone else thinks or how they act towards them?

I understand when the negativity comes from family members how that could have a deep psychological impact. Or how being denied employment could be an issue.

But outside of physical harassment that leads to harm to the individual, why does it matter so much what anyone else thinks? If a person is certain about who they are and their family has accepted it, allowing the opinions of the uniformed to cause emotional distress makes no sense. Be confident in who you are and what others think about you simply cannot negatively impact you in a psychological sense. Because their opinions are invalid and no longer impactful to the person who is confident with their identity.

This is precisely the point I am making in this thread. In our search for labels we seek to define who we are and make that definition more important than simply being who we are.

It is my opinion transgender should not be viewed as a seperate gender any more than skin color should be viewed as a seperate race. As long as we have these lables we will continue to segregate ourselves in ways that I believe are unecessary.

I believe tbe gender of a transgender who is biologically male is a male. There is nothing wrong with a male who chooses to dress like a woman and believes that they are mentally a woman.

But I am about to get controversial. So hate my opinion if you must but I have done enough research that I believe I am making an informed comment.

At this time medical science cannot truly replicate the sexual organs or sexual experience when it comes to gender reassignment. Meaning the reassigned don't actually function in the same way as biological sexual organs do.

They don't look the same, feel the same or respond the same. Maybe someday science will solve this problem. At which time reassignment would be a much more viable option.

But their is much evidence that going through with full reassignment doesn't adequately solve the emotional problems. The rates of suicide for transgenders don't appear to go down after reassignment. So the reassignment doesn't appear to have the type of possitve effect one was hoping for.

I also believe that messing with hormones of a person is a dangerous path that science doesn't fully understand. If a man takes estrogen he can grow breasts. But what does altering one's hormones that are natural to one's biological gender do to that persons mental stability? We may actually be causing a mental instability by introducing unnatural amounts of hormones into our bodies, simply to change our physical appearance.

It is because of the inadequacy of medical science to actually replicate the functionality in reassignment surgery and the possibility that introducing unnatural levels of hormones into our body could cause mental instability I feel that is 100% inappropriate to allow children under the age of 18 to go through any form of hormonal or physical reassignment.

I would caution anyone who is transgender to seriously consider that you are not your physical appearance. And your physical appearance does not dictate who you are. I would much rather raise transgender children to be comfortable with who they are and to look for a partner who appreciates them for who they are. Because no amount of hormones or surgery can make someone want to be with you that is uncomfortable being in a relationship with a transgender. Nor should the transgender try to hide their biological identity from a possible partner.

I think it is acceptable for a man to believe he is mentally a woman. But I think the best psychological approach is help everyone understand that none of us chose any of this. But we are dealt the cards we are dealt. Be comfortable with both the skin you were dealt with and the mind you are dealt with.

If transgenders can accept that their mind does not reflect their biological gender while accepting this is simply the cards they were dealt, I think they will be happier than believing there is something wrong with them or believing they are trapped in some way. If transgender is a natural phenomena than their is nothing unnatural, nothing that needs to be changed.

If transgenders could accept themselves for who they are than I don't believe changing the physical would seem necessary. In my opinion it is better to face reality than to try and hide from it. The reality is some people are transgender and that transgender is not a medical or mental condition that needs to be fixed with hormones or surgery. Especially becaue we know so little and the reassignment procedure inadequate.

If medical science can progress to the point where reassignment surgery can truly lead to a natural experience than my opinion might change. Until then I think it's better to simply be who we are than to try to change to fit some lable that transgenders will never really fit anyway.

There are only 2 genders, but their could be 7 billion ways to express the 2 genders. And we don't need 7 billion lables. We have names, those should suffice.


edit on 3-7-2018 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 09:00 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
No there are only two sets of sexual biological characteristics

Gender is not the same as biological sexual designation.

Now I would love to sit hear and waste my entire night debating this with you but honestly I just don't have the patiance or time for it.

Just know that the academic consensus disagree's with you.


Unfortunately, the meaning of gender has and always will mean exactly what it has always meant.

Are you genetically male or female?

I think that the only reason this is in question is because emotionally, mentally unstable individuals with deep seated psychological damage have lost their ability to comprehend that you can't change who you were born as.

Sure, you can have plastic surgery done and take hormones, but it will never change the fact of your gender at birth.

Its not natures fault you live in a society that promotes perversion and self-dillusion, and it won't cease to be a problem until after the sexual confusion becomes a recognized psychological medical condition.

Perhaps you should stop manipulating the meaning of verbage, and stop feigning frustration at others for standing opposed to your perspective that homosexual behavior is natural. Acceptance of a person is far simpler when they aren't lying to themselves about who they are and expecting the world to accept that lie as fact.

It is, in point of fact, unnatural.

If you ask why, prepare yourself. It's a shocker, really..

Man+Woman=Baby.

Take away all the medical advancements and we wouldn't have a gender identity problem because people would have to accept themselves as they are and not as they wish they were.

That is, by definition, disillusionment.
edit on 3-7-2018 by Knightshadowz because: Spellcheck farted



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 11:24 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
No there are only two sets of sexual biological characteristics

Gender is not the same as biological sexual designation.

Now I would love to sit hear and waste my entire night debating this with you but honestly I just don't have the patiance or time for it.

Just know that the academic consensus disagree's with you.


Whatever play the Symantecs game burry your head in the sand and act like you don't understand my point.


Gender and biological sex are not the same thing its quite simple.

Your title is wrong.

feel free to go do some research but I think you will find that there is a difference between a persons sex and a persons gender.


I understand your point. But it is your point that I disagree with and consider confusing, especially to children.

Again you are making a semantics argument when you fully understand what I am saying. Troll much?


Well yes as a child you may find it confusing but if you do some research I promise you its not all that complicated.

Basically, biological sex is those little chromosomes, either you are xy or xx.

Gender however is not a scientific construct but a more social/psychological construct that deals with what characteristics we ascribe to individuals based on their biological sex which can essentially be unlimited. So its much more about how we define the socially constructed roles and behaviours of a given biological sex and depending on who you talk to this can be just about anything. So within that then you can have several different genders which essentially each individuals describe a different set of characterises, roles and behaviours towards the biological sexes.

I think its become quite difficult for some people to wrap their heads around because in the past the words gender and sex (biological sex) have been used interchangeably which is actually wrong because there is a distinction to be made.

It is that distinction that makes your OP flat out wrong.

Its not semantics, its just fundamentally wrong.


Nonsense. That kind of convoluted thinking could only come from the sociology department or "Gender Studies" or some other soft "discipline" that has wormed its way into education and pretends to be academic. It's not hard science. It's just LGBTQq+++ idiocy. It's laughable and the fact that you would buy off on this nonsense is even more laughable. A lot of mental illness and self-aggrandizement gets a pass as "choice" these days. It is fundamentally ridiculous.



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:05 PM
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Late to the party here but I'd like to throw my own two cents into the mix and offer some thoughts and a perspective not yet brought to the table as someone with an intimate and qualified view into this subject but as mostly a curious and interested outsider. Please allow me to elaborate and venture down this rabbit hole even though I know where it is going to take me.

First of all, I find the idea that sex and gender are two independent, separate and distinct things with no correlation between them to be highly suspect. Certainly, modern usage of these words as unique things has been adopted by segments of popular culture and by sex researchers going back to the 1950's to delineate the strictly biological from the psychosocial as it was the most simplistic concept to explain those whose stereotypical gendered expression or sense of self was incongruent with their biology. Furthermore, it was feminists that ran with these ideas and promoted the notion that we're all born as blank slates and that what we now call "gender" is purely a social construct.

Undoubtedly, many of the perceived stereotypical affectations of what our society considers masculine or feminine are based on social constructs and historical expectations but I believe it is also foolish to attribute these solely to culture and society without recognizing that biology plays a bigger role in our behaviors than some are willing to concede. We may be sentient but we are still animals after all. Clearly, there are in-born and innate behavioral characteristics that differ between most females and most males and this can be witnessed in not only primate species but in most all others as well. Tens of thousands and indeed millions of years of evolution and survival as a species have bred some of these qualities into all of us and who here can really say they don't recognize some of these traits even in very young children before they've been indoctrinated by our culture and society? Research has proven this out. What we call gender is more than a social construct although those influences can't be discounted as these "constructs" have become the criteria by which we measure.

As far as the language and semantics involved separating sex and gender, it is an expedient concept to explain those whose experience of these thing are misaligned and is simply a product of a better understanding and the evolution of the language but I won't deny a certain degree of politics is involved as well in bringing these differentiations into the discourse.

There are two biological sexes, period. This is hard science and there's literally nothing that can change that. We are physically a binary species and there can be little debate about that. Even those we now call intersex i.e. those born with DSDs (disorders of sexual development) exhibiting chromosomal or endocrinological anomalies or ambiguous genitalia and reproductive bits are generally classified as and raised as either boys or girls even though some of these conditions aren't even recognized until puberty or later in life.

Gender, that we use terms like masculine or feminine, boy or girl or man or woman to describe really aren't analogous to the male or female terms that we use to describe one's sex but yet many still do conflate these the two because that's how it has traditionally been done and it's hard to not interchange the two terms. I think where the irritation comes in for most people that can't picture how these things could be mostly but not entirely separate is because for most people they are not.

There have always been and always will be those females that exhibit stereotypical masculine traits and males that exhibit stereotypical feminine traits and however much some want to describe and label this as 215 kinds of new special snowflake genders, they are not. They are still variances of the binary across a spectrum of in-between. The only thing new about any of this is what some want to call it which ventures well into the territory of identity politics and virtue signaling which should not be confused with the extremely rare group of those who are genuinely and classically transsexual.

So, two sexes? Check. Two binary genders? Also check but with the latter comes a wide variety of expression between the two extremes.

Finally, I'll briefly quote the OP and add a comment. As time permits, maybe I'll respond to more.


originally posted by: Isurrender73
No amount of hormones or reconstructive surgery can change these biological facts.

Has anyone ever claimed that they do? Do you really think those that undergo these procedures aren't fully cognizant of their "biology" when for some, that is the crux of their problem?



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:07 PM
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originally posted by: new_here
Trans people need to quit co-opting the intersex condition.

I absolutely agree with that but you need to understand "trans people" are not some monolithic entity that all think the same way. Most do not co-opt intersex conditions as you suggest and if your education into all this comes from Reddit or Tumblr rather than from actually knowing someone legitimately trans, it is easy to see why you would think the way you do.

There are a lot of confused, deluded and disassociated people out there thinking they are something they are not and are grasping at any straw they can find as some sort of justification or a place to fit in. Are you aware there's a great number of genuinely transsexual people that also feel that their narratives have also been co-opted by those that "identify" as transgender and believe that the whole "trans ideology" in general is foreign to their experience and a little nuts? Did you know that even using words like "legitimate" and or "genuine" to describe trans people is a specious and reviled practice by the so called "transgender community"?

I have found that even a fair number of anti-trans hardliners concede the fact that a few individuals do come into this world cross-wired so to speak and are the "real deal" but that this is extremely rare when it does happen and it is something quite different from the internet fueled identity politics of the greater transgender movement.

If you were unaware of these things, I believe your knowledge into all of this may be somewhat incomplete? Start a thread on this topic (as if another one is needed) and I will expand on my views and share the things I know and have learned.


... one day the world will look back on this situation as a prime example of the dangers of Internet Social Contagion.

Again, I couldn't agree with you more but the trans phenomenon predates the internet by decades if not centuries so it's more than just that.



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:15 PM
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a reply to: Olwena

Thank you for the imput in the thread. I agree with what have posted.

My comment was more directed at the psychology of reassignment than the physical. If an adult thinks they will be happier with reassignment surgery despite the risks and lack of real functionality I am no one to stand in their way.

But I believe we may be pushing this decision, especially on kids. When psychologically I think it's better to try to raise our children to be comfortable in their skin even if their mind doesn't quite match up.
edit on 3-7-2018 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:24 PM
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originally posted by: Isurrender73
But I am about to get controversial. So hate my opinion if you must but I have done enough research that I believe I am making an informed comment.

I will not quote your entire post for brevity but you have made a few salient points. Others I'm going to have to consider "trans splaining" which is akin to mansplaining in this context and my opinion is that your opinions are not as informed as you believe. I am also curious as to the source and nature of your "research" as there is a plethora of both pro and anti trans biased information out there and I have literally spent years in the study of both sides of the argument and the trans condition as a whole.


At this time medical science cannot truly replicate the sexual organs or sexual experience when it comes to gender reassignment. Meaning the reassigned don't actually function in the same way as biological sexual organs do.

Where did you get this information from and are you referring to those that go from M to F or those that go from F to M as there are vast differences in surgical outcomes between FTM phalloplasty or metoidioplasty and MTF vaginoplasty with the latter being significantly more advanced as well as functional. The most common complaint from those undergoing traditional penile skin inversion or skin graft vaginoplasty is lack of natural lubrication when sexually aroused which is a common problem for many natal females as well, particularly for those of post menopausal age. Those undergoing a colon vaginoplasty or the more recent experimental techniques of using the endometrial lining of the abdomen to create the lining of the vagina do not have such problems but these are both more complicated, more costly and less common procedures. These great functional differences that you speak of are not the issue you are making them out to be.


They don't look the same, feel the same or respond the same. Maybe someday science will solve this problem. At which time reassignment would be a much more viable option.

Really? Checked out a lot of transified genitalia have we? Had sex with someone that has been through this procedure? Most modern vaginoplasty and or labiaplasty results externally are virtually indistinguishable from natal females except by internal gynecological examination and upwards of 85% report high rates of sexual satisfaction and are orgasmic. In terms of normal heterosexual PIV intercourse, you would be hard pressed to even know the difference or so I've been told by those that know about these things (men).

The most common myth I wish to dispel is that most trans people even have genital reconstruction. In the 2015 US Transgender Discrimination Survey with 27,000 trans identified respondents, only 10% to 12% of MTF's have even undergone such procedures and the numbers are even lower for those going in a FTM direction.


But their is much evidence that going through with full reassignment doesn't adequately solve the emotional problems. The rates of suicide for transgenders don't appear to go down after reassignment. So the reassignment doesn't appear to have the type of possitve effect one was hoping for.

This is simply inaccurate and a consistent part of the anti-trans narrative using cherry picked statistics from the often misquoted "Swedish Study" frequently promoted by the likes of the discredited Dr. Paul McHugh formerly with Johns Hopkins and one of the current leaders of the pseudo scientific American College of Pediatricians, a known anti-trans organization designated as a hate group by the SPLC. (Yeah, I know, SPLC. Don't beat me up for it)

Suicide within the trans population no doubt is an acknowledged problem. It is accepted within medicine, mental-health, and sociology communities that these adverse statistics reflect a combination of minority stress and lack of access to affirming health care. When given access to supportive environments and medical care, quality of life for transgender women (including mental health) is not significantly different from the general population. (source) More on transgender suicide (Yeah I know, HuffPo. Don't beat me up for it) Most recent studies put actual surgical dissatisfaction or regret at 0% to 4% which is much higher overall than most every other type of surgery.

Being trans is hard. Who would have thunk? Read more about the Myths about transition regret


I also believe that messing with hormones of a person is a dangerous path that science doesn't fully understand. If a man takes estrogen he can grow breasts. But what does altering one's hormones that are natural to one's biological gender do to that persons mental stability? We may actually be causing a mental instability by introducing unnatural amounts of hormones into our bodies, simply to change our physical appearance.

Belief is one thing but facts are something else. Your worries over the health of trans people actually has a name for it. Granted, cross-sex HRT is not without some associated risks particularly when using older non-bioidentical
hormones but it is generally acknowledged that the risks of doing nothing presents a greater peril. Trans people undergoing this therapy present just the opposite picture than what you have tried to paint and report a calming and stabilizing effect from these drugs as well as far less suicide ideation and often describe the sensation as finally feeling like their body is running on the right fuel.


It is because of the inadequacy of medical science to actually replicate the functionality in reassignment surgery and the possibility that introducing unnatural levels of hormones into our body could cause mental instability I feel that is 100% inappropriate to allow children under the age of 18 to go through any form of hormonal or physical reassignment.

All I can say thank the gods you weren't one of my parents or doctors, otherwise I would have ended up a sad statistic, unquestionably and without a doubt. Don't get me started on trans youth or I'll be here the rest of the day.


I would much rather raise transgender children to be comfortable with who they are and to look for a partner who appreciates them for who they are. Because no amount of hormones or surgery can make someone want to be with you that is uncomfortable being in a relationship with a transgender. Nor should the transgender try to hide their biological identity from a possible partner.

I'm really glad you have this all figured out and have come up with own rules. You've never actually known or talked to a real trans person let alone a transgender child, have you? Continue doing your "research". Follow my links even if you don't like the source. Engage me in respectful dialog with a genuine curiosity and open mind and I might help you better understand of these things from a more informed perspective?



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:57 PM
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a reply to: Olwena

Again I am glad that you are participating and providing links.

It appears that the suicide rate ideology is indeed incorrect. And yes MTF transition is much closer in functionality and appearance than FTM, I am and was aware of this when I posted the OP.

I am also pleased to find out that regret of reassignment is very low. But I never implied that suicide rate had anything to do with reassignment or that anyone would be unhappy with their decision. I actually implied that the way people are treated by family is likely the most common reason for psychological problems.

However, none of that makes me comfortable with the idea of children undergoing any form of reassignment until they are adults. Children's minds are very impressionable and I don't feel that most children are ready ro make such decisions for themselves. I still believe it would be better for them to mature and then make the decision. With that being said I don't imagine many children whose parents promoted reassignment would grow up regretting their decision becaue they are loved by family for who they are.

I could be completely wrong about this but to say that we know for certain one way or another is disingenuous. All of the links provided admit that it is very difficult to study because how do you determine who gets treatment and who doesn't? It is litteraly impossible to test a placebo.

Maybe at some point in my life I will be lucky enough to speak with transgender children and allow them to change my mind. Or maybe enough studies will be done in my lifetime to prove I am wrong. I don't have a problem being wrong nor am I trying to force my views on anyone. These are just my opinions.

If worrying about the well being of people labels me a concern troll I can wear that lable. Of course i am a concern troll for just about everything that has a negative impact on human psychology that I have no personal experience with. I am an empathetic human being who only wants what I think best based on whatever current data is available.


edit on 3-7-2018 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 04:56 PM
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a reply to: Olwena

I'd be interested to know more about what you know. I hail from a small town and do not personally know transgender people. I get my information from news stories which tell me male-bodied people, who say they are women, but may or may not still have testosterone coursing thru their veins, can win state titles in women's sports... can be awarded women's scholarships... are granted access to some women's changing only rooms, bathrooms, and jails. Men who commit violent crimes but declare they are women, skew the data to mean that women are committing these crimes.


I do not do Tumblr, but I do see the rampant jumping on the bandwagon on the asktransgender subreddit. It is disturbing just how many males show up and say: Here is my story, am I really a woman? Then the echo chamber ensues and so much advice on how to get a therapist to sign off on them getting hormones. Many of these questioners are teenagers, and tell stories of typically feminine interests and/or traits. These guys used to be gay or feminine men... nothing wrong with that! But these days, they're 'really a woman trapped in a man's body' and need to completely change their body, mannerisms, fake their voice, etc... instead of accepting and being who they are and expanding the definition of what a man is. It is a sad and dangerous situation.




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