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Rising conservative star Jordan Peterson in debate: "Athiesm leads to murder"

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posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 01:54 AM
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a reply to: Phage




Is that like prison, for committing a crime? Is being evicted from the Church fatal?
No , I think its called incarcerate when a prison comes into view . From "The" Church yes but not from "A" Church .




posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:06 AM
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a reply to: Puppylove

So your sayin a believer once forgiven doesn't have to deal with their conscience and failures but non believers do
So how does that work, I am very interested

My actions are forgiven not excused, my conscience doesn't become any less real. Point in fact, I take on the burden of my failures, accept they are wrong and have to deal,with it

I know non believers who have no fear of eternal consequence and happily Robin Hood to feed of others, no guilt

I know non believers who don't suffer much guilt at all, show no remorse and don't change their lifestyles
A tenant of Christianity is repentance, accepting and changing
Do atheists have to repent, have to change, is it a commandment
Atheists can if they choose continue in any act they want, and they never ever have to confront or accept responsibility for their actions if they choose not to

Yes Christianity is an awesome gift for criminals, it demands repentance, offers forgiveness but Christianity doesn't dull the conscience
It doesn't excuse your actions, helps finding forgiveness, helps with becoming a better peeson



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:08 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman




So your sayin a believer once forgiven doesn't have to deal with their conscience and failures but non believers do

No.
Are you saying that atheists have no conscience?
edit on 7/3/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:12 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Raggedyman




So your sayin a believer once forgiven doesn't have to deal with their conscience and failures but non believers do

No.
Are you saying that atheist have no conscience?


Actually phage I am saying pretty much exactly that, I know a few people I would say seem to have little to no conscience in certain criminal activities
I am not talking every atheist obviously and not excluding some who call themselves Christian either

Take drug dealers for instance, some would seem to have little to no conscience?
Personal story about a very close friend but not appropriate



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:15 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman




Take drug dealers for instance, some would seem to have little to no conscience?

Indeed. But of course, no drug dealers believe in God.
Because a drug dealer can't be a believer because a drug dealer does bad things so a drug dealer can't be a believer because a believer can't do bad things



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:20 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

A believer has as much ability to move on guilt free after believing they've been forgiven as an atheist to not take responsibility.

In both cases it's the quality of the person and individual on whether they care enough to take personal responsibility for their actions, or choose to interpret the scriptures meaning and intent same as you have.

People who are atheist or Christian choose to murder, and those who really want to will find a way biblically or rationally to make it acceptable to them. Christianity does not magically take the psychopathy out of a psychopath, and atheism does not curse a person with psychopathy.

The quality of a person's character is unique to them. Religion or no has no bearing on the character of a person. The ability to take responsibility for their actions and consider their actions in the greater context of their place in society and in doing so choose to take those actions which better society and accept responsibility and try to improve where they fail, however does. A person can do this whether they have religion or not, and a person who does not do this, will not whether they profess some religious belief or not.

That's a problem with many religious people. They will accept a person is more moral and righteous cause they say they are religious, despite only ever seeming to show lip service to their beliefs, and barely showing any knowledge of the scriptur or what those beliefs even are but doubt the quality and integrity and moral compass of a person who's demonstrated great compassion and care for others, simply because they don't believe in God.

Christian or not Christian, judge a person by the quality of their character as they have proven themselves in both action and deed.



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:37 AM
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a reply to: Puppylove




Morals can have value without religion. In fact religion adds no inherent value to morals.
I said humans recognize morals and add a "value" a worth to what they recognize . If a religion both practices and promotes a moral then that creates a value for someone some where . Its why we try to teach our kids about them .




A person choosing not to kill because they choose to believe in God and that the bible tells them not to, has no inherent value over someone who chooses not to kill because they feel it's wrong and believe a society of murderers is not one they'd like to live in.
No one wants to live where murder happens but that does not stop it from happening . The threat of prison "if" caught might slow it down . The threat of being caught more so . Believing you can't get away with anything more so again .



Absolutely nothing about believing in God or the moralities laid out by Him in the bible prevents a person from choosing to murder.
The Bible is very clear that God only messes with free will by using love . You might want to study up on Atonement ,its a very big subject with very specific meaning and application .biblically speaking .




Where as if the non-believer breaks from their moral compass they have no one to blame but themselves, and there is no one to forgive them but themselves and if they work very hard to actually improve themselves and demonstrate they have changed, possibly society, but don't bet on it.
Lesson is that Integrity is much easier maintained then regained .




A nonbeliever must live with and accept responsibility for their actions.
Except for when they don't . But if you are going to preach that in your nonbeliever group you are welcome to preach it in the believers group as well . And we have jails for the non conformist .




A believer can excuse their actions by their sinful nature, and find atonement in asking God for forgiveness.
Again you need to educate yourself on "Atonement"





I can see why the desire to believe in God is so prevalent among criminals in prison. Is so much easier and more comforting to excuse your actions as that of your sinful nature, and to believe in forgiveness for your actions in the afterlife than it is to accept full responsibility for your actions and the horror you've created of the only life you have through your actions.
How do you comfort yourself when you sin ? I only ask because I wont pretend to speak for you like you have for those in prison . Hey guess what . Not all prisoners are guilty or guilty of the crimes you are labeling as horrific . You do know that there are people in there for pot eh ? wow the imagined horror of it all . I have yet to find pot or smoking it a sin in the bible . Not that I smoke it any longer but just saying .



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:45 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
I am not talking every atheist obviously and not excluding some who call themselves Christian either


This demonstrates that you know the truth, yet stubbornly refuse to admit you do, and insist on Christian moral superiority anyway.

You cannot only choose those who call themselves Christian to only be so if they demonstrate good character while refusing to accept atheists who demonstrate good character as atheists, and only using atheists with bad character to represent them, while refusing to accept Christians with bad character as representatives of Christians.

Good character is good character regardless of professed belief, and you have no authority which to determine the Christian credentials of others as it seems every damn Christian thinks their unique brand is the one true way.



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:51 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

I'm fully aware of how broken the prison system is. We were talking the context of murder, and so that was the prison context I was using. How effed up our criminal justice system is, is a conversation for another time.

Also since you all pick and choose which Atheists to count we have as much ability to choose which Christians to count. I can stick with whatever interpretation of the bible I want as long as anyone who professes to be Christian holds that interpretation, no matter how bad, sick or twisted that interpretation. Same as you all can pick out only those who are atheists and happen to have no empathy or concerns for society as a whole and are most likely chemically psychopaths or sociopaths as the sole representation of what it means to be atheist.
edit on 7/3/2018 by Puppylove because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:54 AM
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a reply to: Puppylove




Good character is good character regardless of professed belief, and you have no authority which to determine the Christian credentials of others as it seems every damn Christian thinks their unique brand is the one true way.
The Bible teaches that God is cool with any humans doing good . He is in the sin business .



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:57 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

Yeah. But you don't get to find out for sure until you're dead. And what's the point of that?

At least with reincarnation you get to keep trying until you get it right.

But followers of Christ get only one shot. That makes sense.

Actually, neither one makes sense.

edit on 7/3/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 02:59 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

The bible teaches a lot of things. Those who claim to be Christian come in many different flavors as they pick and choose which parts of the bible to focus on and works for them while demonizing any other interpretation which strays too far from or contradicts their own.

Much like every non Christian who likewise has varying beliefs and ideals from which they make their decisions.

Funny how that works.

Seems people are just people no matter what box you try to put them in.



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:11 AM
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a reply to: Puppylove




Also since you all pick and choose which Atheists to count we have as much ability to choose which Christians to count. I can stick with whatever interpretation of the bible I want as long as anyone who professes to be Christian holds that interpretation, no matter how bad, sick or twisted that interpretation. Same as you all can pick out only those who are atheists and happen to have no empathy or concerns for society as a whole and are most likely chemically psychopaths or sociopaths as the sole representation of what it means to be atheist.
Well if its about choosing a bias sample to make a point then that will reflect . Maybe its time to look at more scientific rigorous study from Academia . It might be interesting to find papers that were rejected because of bias issues .But seeing we are dealing with such a subject then maybe finding someone who is a leader in their field and is well peer reviewed might be a good choice . let me see ...who could fit that bill ...mmm tough one . Oh wait how about we go to the person who is the subject of the OP Dr Jordan Peterson . He is neither a Christian nor a Atheist but is Agnostic .

Unless you can come up with someone better or equally qualified .



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:12 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1




He is neither a Christian nor a Atheist but is Agnostic .

What a non-committal wuss.

edit on 7/3/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:20 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

I don't have access to his peers. Do you? Same as I'm not willing to use any one Christian or Atheist to represent them all, I'm not willing to accept you and others attempts to treat this singular individual as the sole authority on this matter.

I will say I find it highly unlikely the bulk of those with doctorates in psychology and sociology would agree with this individual, but as I am not in the position where I can easily access that data I'm left in a bind.

We're discussing this one guy and our opinion of his claims. In the absence of others of similar education to compare him to, we are left treating him as an individual and not an assumed consensus.

Also considering the subject matter, I'm not sure I agree with the idea that any amount of education can make you an authority on this subject. A large portion of it is philosophical rather than scientific in nature.



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:21 AM
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a reply to: Puppylove




The bible teaches a lot of things. Those who claim to be Christian come in many different flavors as they pick and choose which parts of the bible to focus on and works for them while demonizing any other interpretation which strays too far from or contradicts their own.
Beware of cookie cutter Christians . Christians beware of the cookie cutter christian factory's that look like a church . Having a free will to make choices is great . Being able to be me and not someone else is great . Having the ability to look at so many bible versions and think about the verse in question is great . Its even great to study about the construction of the different versions and their history . I have actually learned to love the errors in my Bible and have them highlighted and notes on them . Its all great



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:25 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

Rationalize all you wish.

The fact remains, a claim of moral superiority based on a belief in Christ has no validity.
edit on 7/3/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:27 AM
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a reply to: Puppylove

His work is very aviable online . He has over 200 hours of You Tube vids alone . I think he has published around 100 papers . Another member provided his CV earlier in the thread .



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:28 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1




He has over 200 hours of You Tube vids alone

Talkative, is he?
So was Fidel Castro.


edit on 7/3/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2018 @ 03:30 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

Currently I'm taking my girlfriend to therapy almost every week and taking her to get the medicine she needs to help with her post traumatic stress disorder and help her with her trauma induced anorexia all due to the time she was stuck living with some messed up extremist christian cult that tortured her physically, mentally and emotionally all based on their interpretation of the bible and her unwillingness to completely conform to and question those beliefs.

So I have good reason for why I do not buy into the Christian equals morally superior. It's nice that you are open to your interpretations being questioned and learning, but a lot of Christians aren't and many interpretations can lead to quite horrific results.

All considered I think I manage a rather controlled and balanced response to this topic. More than would be expected anyway.
edit on 7/3/2018 by Puppylove because: (no reason given)



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