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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Raggedyman
So your sayin a believer once forgiven doesn't have to deal with their conscience and failures but non believers do
Are you saying that atheist have no conscience?
Take drug dealers for instance, some would seem to have little to no conscience?
I said humans recognize morals and add a "value" a worth to what they recognize . If a religion both practices and promotes a moral then that creates a value for someone some where . Its why we try to teach our kids about them .
Morals can have value without religion. In fact religion adds no inherent value to morals.
No one wants to live where murder happens but that does not stop it from happening . The threat of prison "if" caught might slow it down . The threat of being caught more so . Believing you can't get away with anything more so again .
A person choosing not to kill because they choose to believe in God and that the bible tells them not to, has no inherent value over someone who chooses not to kill because they feel it's wrong and believe a society of murderers is not one they'd like to live in.
The Bible is very clear that God only messes with free will by using love . You might want to study up on Atonement ,its a very big subject with very specific meaning and application .biblically speaking .
Absolutely nothing about believing in God or the moralities laid out by Him in the bible prevents a person from choosing to murder.
Lesson is that Integrity is much easier maintained then regained .
Where as if the non-believer breaks from their moral compass they have no one to blame but themselves, and there is no one to forgive them but themselves and if they work very hard to actually improve themselves and demonstrate they have changed, possibly society, but don't bet on it.
Except for when they don't . But if you are going to preach that in your nonbeliever group you are welcome to preach it in the believers group as well . And we have jails for the non conformist .
A nonbeliever must live with and accept responsibility for their actions.
Again you need to educate yourself on "Atonement"
A believer can excuse their actions by their sinful nature, and find atonement in asking God for forgiveness.
How do you comfort yourself when you sin ? I only ask because I wont pretend to speak for you like you have for those in prison . Hey guess what . Not all prisoners are guilty or guilty of the crimes you are labeling as horrific . You do know that there are people in there for pot eh ? wow the imagined horror of it all . I have yet to find pot or smoking it a sin in the bible . Not that I smoke it any longer but just saying .
I can see why the desire to believe in God is so prevalent among criminals in prison. Is so much easier and more comforting to excuse your actions as that of your sinful nature, and to believe in forgiveness for your actions in the afterlife than it is to accept full responsibility for your actions and the horror you've created of the only life you have through your actions.
originally posted by: Raggedyman
I am not talking every atheist obviously and not excluding some who call themselves Christian either
The Bible teaches that God is cool with any humans doing good . He is in the sin business .
Good character is good character regardless of professed belief, and you have no authority which to determine the Christian credentials of others as it seems every damn Christian thinks their unique brand is the one true way.
Well if its about choosing a bias sample to make a point then that will reflect . Maybe its time to look at more scientific rigorous study from Academia . It might be interesting to find papers that were rejected because of bias issues .But seeing we are dealing with such a subject then maybe finding someone who is a leader in their field and is well peer reviewed might be a good choice . let me see ...who could fit that bill ...mmm tough one . Oh wait how about we go to the person who is the subject of the OP Dr Jordan Peterson . He is neither a Christian nor a Atheist but is Agnostic .
Also since you all pick and choose which Atheists to count we have as much ability to choose which Christians to count. I can stick with whatever interpretation of the bible I want as long as anyone who professes to be Christian holds that interpretation, no matter how bad, sick or twisted that interpretation. Same as you all can pick out only those who are atheists and happen to have no empathy or concerns for society as a whole and are most likely chemically psychopaths or sociopaths as the sole representation of what it means to be atheist.
Beware of cookie cutter Christians . Christians beware of the cookie cutter christian factory's that look like a church . Having a free will to make choices is great . Being able to be me and not someone else is great . Having the ability to look at so many bible versions and think about the verse in question is great . Its even great to study about the construction of the different versions and their history . I have actually learned to love the errors in my Bible and have them highlighted and notes on them . Its all great
The bible teaches a lot of things. Those who claim to be Christian come in many different flavors as they pick and choose which parts of the bible to focus on and works for them while demonizing any other interpretation which strays too far from or contradicts their own.