Rising conservative star Jordan Peterson in debate: "Athiesm leads to murder"

a reply to: kaylaluv

Just love each to his own is that so hard to concept?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

That seems like a huge difference to me.

The declaration of human rights gets its power from God and not man made govt. Weather religious or not we both should agree that keeping religion and state is a separate matter and should remain so.

Human rights do not come from God, they come from other humans. That’s why other humans can take away your rights. If your rates came from God, then humans couldn’t take them away. If your religion was so good at making sure everybody was treated fairly, then why don’t we use it?

a reply to: Raggedyman

It is actually scientific to say morality is hardwired.

thedoctorweighsin.com...

kids.frontiersin.org...

discovermagazine.com...

You know how science works, right?

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Raggedyman

Does being religious keep you from breaking rules? Do religious people kill people? I know you like to bring up Stalin, Mao, and pol pot, Because they are atheists who had people killed, But plenty of religious people killed as well.

So how do you explain that?

Religious people are not nice, that's a fact

how do I explain it, because religious people are morally corrupt, broken, selfish, greedy, horrible, whatever.
I have never denied that Christians are morally corrupt, have I?

All I am saying is that Christianity has a clearly defined moral foundation
I didn't say Christians adhered to it

You are over reaching Woodie

All I am saying is Christianity has a very clearly defined set of moral standards

And what is that Clearly defined foundation that Christians Use to guide their moral compass.

It’s my opinion that the Bible is not clearly defined whatsoever. Whatever rule you want to pick from the Bible, I can find a quote that contradicts it. Which is why there are over 30,000 denominations.

My point being, that Christians don’t necessarily get their moral compass from the Bible. They get it from society. They get it from watching the interactions of others, and evaluating which actions equate to good and bad.

Two rules
Love God, love each other
Argue away

That’s your interpretation. Other Christians would argue vehemently against that.

No
They would have to argue with the bible not me
John 13 34/35

It's what the bible teaches

They will give you quotes to say the Bible teaches other things.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: snowspirit
a reply to: Raggedyman

But Stalin was an atheist who killed millions, so was Mao. Neither believed what you believed, so based on their and your atheism, why do you think they did the wrong thing

I don't equate the killing they did with atheism, because there's enough people of various religious beliefs, that kill indiscriminately as well.
As well as people directly involved with the church, that have done things with children, that should never have happened.

I really don't know where morals come from, I guess, because there are too many Christians and people of other religious affiliations that don't seem to have morals or ethics.

It's irrelevant what you think
What is relevant is that they were atheists and they killed and they had no moral compunction not to, I believe

If they had a moral standard, where did they get it from

I personally don't think atheism was their motivation, but their atheism didn't teach them killing millions was wrong either, or did it

I don’t think I’ve ever seen you admit that before. So if you don’t think their atheism lead them to kill millions, why would you bring it up? In every #ing thread.

The problem here is that you believe in the sky daddy. You think that your interpretation of what that sky daddy wants is the only correct interpretation. you think the rules in that book are serious and could’ve only come from an outside source. But it is quite plain to see that those rules in that book were a conglomeration of what worked in previous societies and cultures. Humans made up those rules in a trial and error kind of way. The problem with humans as they don’t like to listen to other humans. So they invented the sky daddy, who gave those rules a perceived authority that No human could match.

We have that history on hand to read and follow. We know that priesthoods existed long before the Old Testament. We know that there were plenty of other books, religions, cultures, that were similar, but failed because they were missing certain elements in their doctrines that were essential for keeping a society peaceful and working together. We can see the newer versions of these add doctrines that made society work a little better. And later they added more That makes society work even a little better. Humans made these rules, not based on what sky daddy wanted, but based on what they saw with their own eyes. What worked and what didn’t work. They saw what rules created a fair government ruling body, And they saw what rules created oppressive governments.

Today we have the United States government. Which took aspects of governments throughout time that worked, and omitted most of those rules that do not work in favor for the people. Why do you think that a government should be secular instead of based on religious rules?

Two rules, love God love each other

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Raggedyman

It is actually scientific to say morality is hardwired.

thedoctorweighsin.com...

kids.frontiersin.org...

discovermagazine.com...

You know how science works, right?

Science
First page of ats now, huge argument about Psi and science

I don't know if you know what you are talking about, nor many scientists for that matter

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Raggedyman

Does being religious keep you from breaking rules? Do religious people kill people? I know you like to bring up Stalin, Mao, and pol pot, Because they are atheists who had people killed, But plenty of religious people killed as well.

So how do you explain that?

Religious people are not nice, that's a fact

how do I explain it, because religious people are morally corrupt, broken, selfish, greedy, horrible, whatever.
I have never denied that Christians are morally corrupt, have I?

All I am saying is that Christianity has a clearly defined moral foundation
I didn't say Christians adhered to it

You are over reaching Woodie

All I am saying is Christianity has a very clearly defined set of moral standards

And what is that Clearly defined foundation that Christians Use to guide their moral compass.

It’s my opinion that the Bible is not clearly defined whatsoever. Whatever rule you want to pick from the Bible, I can find a quote that contradicts it. Which is why there are over 30,000 denominations.

My point being, that Christians don’t necessarily get their moral compass from the Bible. They get it from society. They get it from watching the interactions of others, and evaluating which actions equate to good and bad.

Two rules
Love God, love each other
Argue away

That’s your interpretation. Other Christians would argue vehemently against that.

No
They would have to argue with the bible not me
John 13 34/35

It's what the bible teaches

They will give you quotes to say the Bible teaches other things.

Will they, really????
You sure

a reply to: Raggedyman

What does love for an imaginary God give you?

We have already discussed that the rules set forth in the Bible make no sense. And surely are not the best way to run a government

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Raggedyman

Does being religious keep you from breaking rules? Do religious people kill people? I know you like to bring up Stalin, Mao, and pol pot, Because they are atheists who had people killed, But plenty of religious people killed as well.

So how do you explain that?

Religious people are not nice, that's a fact

how do I explain it, because religious people are morally corrupt, broken, selfish, greedy, horrible, whatever.
I have never denied that Christians are morally corrupt, have I?

All I am saying is that Christianity has a clearly defined moral foundation
I didn't say Christians adhered to it

You are over reaching Woodie

All I am saying is Christianity has a very clearly defined set of moral standards

And what is that Clearly defined foundation that Christians Use to guide their moral compass.

It’s my opinion that the Bible is not clearly defined whatsoever. Whatever rule you want to pick from the Bible, I can find a quote that contradicts it. Which is why there are over 30,000 denominations.

My point being, that Christians don’t necessarily get their moral compass from the Bible. They get it from society. They get it from watching the interactions of others, and evaluating which actions equate to good and bad.

Two rules
Love God, love each other
Argue away

That’s your interpretation. Other Christians would argue vehemently against that.

No
They would have to argue with the bible not me
John 13 34/35

It's what the bible teaches

They will give you quotes to say the Bible teaches other things.

Will they, really????
You sure

Of course they will. Are you really ignorant of this? There are 30,000 denominations of Christianity. Because there are endless ways to interpret what the Bible says.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Article 1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. Article 2. Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty. Article 3. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Note "They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood." www.un.org...

en·dow inˈdou,enˈdou/Submit verb past tense: endowed; past participle: endowed give or bequeath an income or property to (a person or institution). "he endowed the church with lands" establish (a college post, annual prize, or project) by donating the funds needed to maintain it. synonyms: finance, fund, pay for, provide for, subsidize, support financially, put up the money for; More provide with a quality, ability, or asset.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Raggedyman

Does being religious keep you from breaking rules? Do religious people kill people? I know you like to bring up Stalin, Mao, and pol pot, Because they are atheists who had people killed, But plenty of religious people killed as well.

So how do you explain that?

Religious people are not nice, that's a fact

how do I explain it, because religious people are morally corrupt, broken, selfish, greedy, horrible, whatever.
I have never denied that Christians are morally corrupt, have I?

All I am saying is that Christianity has a clearly defined moral foundation
I didn't say Christians adhered to it

You are over reaching Woodie

All I am saying is Christianity has a very clearly defined set of moral standards

And what is that Clearly defined foundation that Christians Use to guide their moral compass.

It’s my opinion that the Bible is not clearly defined whatsoever. Whatever rule you want to pick from the Bible, I can find a quote that contradicts it. Which is why there are over 30,000 denominations.

My point being, that Christians don’t necessarily get their moral compass from the Bible. They get it from society. They get it from watching the interactions of others, and evaluating which actions equate to good and bad.

Two rules
Love God, love each other
Argue away

People cannot agree on who, or what God is.
I just now consider it/him/her the soul (or souls) of the universe. Since no one really knows for positively sure, until we die.....but yes, love is good.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: kaylaluv

That’s your interpretation. Other Christians would argue vehemently against that.

Most if not all the Christians I know would not . Maybe you are failing to make the distinction between a real Christian and a false Christian . Both exist and both do not agree as well as unlearned Christians .

I live in Texas - I know a LOT of Christians. Most Texas Christians (primarily Southern Baptists and Church of Christ) think the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, and that adultery is a sin, and that paying a prostitute for sex is a sin, and sex before marriage is a sin. So the general attitude is that one should live their life not doing these things, if you want to please God. Some more liberal Christians I know (some Methodists and Presbyterians) don’t have a problem with homosexuality (as long as you aren’t promiscuous), or sex before marriage (as long as you are in a committed relationship), but they still don’t like the adultery thing, or prostitutes.

Which ones are true Christians, and which ones are false Christians, and who gets to decide that?

a reply to: the2ofusr1

yes, humans wrote that. If you will notice in that definition of the word “endowed “, It does not mention God. But even if it did mention God, it would’ve been a human who wrote it.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Okay, you want to disregard science. I guess that’s your perogative. Doesn’t make it correct, though...

When I first came to terms with my own "atheism", it resulted in my not being able to justify any form of cruelty, I couldn't even bring myself to eat meat until a few years ago, and I still feel kind of bad every time I do.

It's pretty scary how many peoples "morals" are really just a fear of retribution and are not actually altruistic in any way.

a reply to: kaylaluv

I think you will find the bible very clear on those issues, no interpretation necessary
As for science and hard wired brain
I already stated clearly that I believed the brain was hard wired
What I asked for was hard scientific evidence, those links were opinion pieces in scien i.e. Magazines, not science

a reply to: wheresthebody

ive been trying hard to do the vegetarian thing for the past few months. ive cheated a couple times and feel terrible when i do
i hate it

a reply to: Raggedyman

What's your point man? You're surely reaching...

If you want a simple answer it comes from evolution.

But no. I'm guessing God made those little fishes to clean off the whales and those Greater Honeyguides of Africa were made to serve humans and find them bee hives?

You keep making the assertion that atheists have moral code, if that's the case then no humans have a moral code. Which is a load of none sense. Hell I've seen hungry dogs before and strays that were never taught. Why don't they eat me?

You're missing one fundamental truth to life, all communication and interaction is based upon two things. Food or # off. When an animal knows it's productive to share time, resources and abilities they tend to stick to this paradigm and not betray it. Seemingly this trait is somehow remembered through generations. Because last I heard we are the only animals with an oral tradition and history.

Humans in the most basic of societies still practice banishment and forms of punishment, some of these societies have no god. Why do they follow the generalized "golden rule" system?

I'd say it's because it's in our DNA, it's a part of what makes us who we are. Many animals share this trait, not to say exceptions don't exist because they do. Within individual species this "exception" is usually dealt with one way or another.

Again what's your point?

Naturally learned traits vs artificial traits?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: kaylaluv

I think you will find the bible very clear on those issues, no interpretation necessary

Sorry, not so clear. For example, Jesus didn’t say anything about homosexuality or same sex marriage - whether it was okay or not okay. Some Christians will tell you his quote about a man and a women leaving their parents and getting married should be interpreted to mean gay marriage is wrong, but it doesn’t clearly say that. It’s an interpretation.

As for science and hard wired brain
I already stated clearly that I believed the brain was hard wired
What I asked for was hard scientific evidence, those links were opinion pieces in scien i.e. Magazines, not science

There are studies referred to in the articles. The articles have references, links, and citations.

originally posted by: wheresthebody


It's pretty scary how many peoples "morals" are really just a fear of retribution and are not actually altruistic in any way.

In my opinion, that is what you should expect when holding a worldview that relies on fear of an imaginary God.

Or for that matter, a Moral system that relies on fear of Consequences for breaking laws.

I wonder how a system that relies on reward for being benevolent and Philanthropic would perform?