The Problem with the Left by a dirty leftist.

a reply to: TonyS

There's a really big difference in terms of history between the left in the UK and the left in the US. That difference is rather simple..........the UK left won years ago. Socialized or Nationalized Medicine, gun confiscation, open borders, intrusive social services, cameras on every corner, the lot......you won.

No.... just no.

Actually being a liberal in the UK means something totally different than it does in the States.

Brexit has been seen as a massively politically right issue, its not something most of the left wanted for example, the right won on that one.

Your way off on that whole post.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin Well written post.Ah,if only both sides would just back away from the extremes and try finding common ground and get along.Once I voted a split ticket most of the time,since no one bucks their party line when they go to Washington anymore that is no longer a option.We may be on opposite sides of the scale,but this beer is to you and liberals who will listen and exchange ideas to find workable solutions.Cheers

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

OSOTC, I would sincerely like to shake your hand for this post.

Thank you

Both sides/all parties have their shortcomings, and I look forward to the time (hopefully today!) we stop demonizing one another for having different points of view.

Truthfully, I've seen liberals/moderates/conservatives/libertarians and even socialists/revolutionaries come up with some great ideas/valid points. I hope everyone has the courage to stop attacking other individuals for thinking differently.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Uh, well..........the Right wanted Brexit and the "Liberals" were remain, correct?
The Liberals (UK) wanted Nationalized Health Care and got it, no?
The Liberals wanted firearm restrictions and confiscation, no?
The Liberals wanted the all-round about Camera surveillance to keep people safe after the Liberals took the guns, no?

So, over and through the years, the UK Liberals got most everything they wanted, no?

Maybe the difference is that in the UK you refer to leftists as Liberals, whereas in the US, Centersts are "Liberals", (all five of the remaining) and Leftists are "Leftists".

a reply to: TonyS

The Liberals (UK) wanted Nationalized Health Care and got it, no?

Nope everyone wanted that.

The Liberals wanted firearm restrictions and confiscation, no?

Again widely supported.

The Liberals wanted the all-round about Camera surveillance to keep people safe after the Liberals took the guns, no?

Ok again no.

most CCTV is privately owned anyway, and both conservative and liberal politicians are in agreement when it comes to guns,

I think you might be a little confused and I can understand why, we just a different culture, nobody in the UK, even the most right wing actually would be against nationalised healthcare for example.

a reply to: loam

This is a great meme.
twitter.com...

The UK can do things like nationalize health care and other things is because of population. America has almost 10 times a population of the UK. A single entity is incapable of accommodating this many individuals.

The gun thing is just because the British are more authoritarian in nature.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Very fair. Good job.

a reply to: JBurns

I think we have gone so far with the demonizing of each other that we are now feeling bad about it.

It was a fun band wagon to jump on but in the end we are mostly a country (USA) of caring people.

We feel bad for making each other feel bad.

a reply to: scraedtosleep Hope it stops,we don`t need another civil war.I miss being able to have a rational discussion over politics.

Your Left or my Left ?
You know there is the "Big Pond" in between us.
I am to the left of you . You are to the right of me.
As the world goes.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

The Problem with the " Left " is Distinctly Self Evident to Most Aware People who care to Observe and Evaluate the Events around them .......

It's funny how people on the right constantly define what it means to be on the left. Here's what it means to be on the left from an FDR speech in 1936:

"An old English judge once said: 'Necessitous men are not free men.' Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government."

Speech before the 1936 Democratic National Convention

Government is the only answer to economic tyranny. Marx always said laissez-faire capitalism is always followed by communism. This is because unfettered greed would result if the government's currency collapsing to nothing in value. Once the currency collapses to nothing in value people in bread lines will demand MORE government not less. See you in the breadlines comrades!

Don't believe me, here's the Federal Reserve published data:

www.quandl.com...

I'd have to define "left" before I could say anything reasonable myself ... but, whatever definition were decided upon, to me at this moment in my life, things are becomming very simple.

If you are the kind of person that believes that people can do whatever they wish as long as they aren't hurting anyone else, you're okay by me.

If you're the kind of person that believes that people have to act according to your individual opinions about what is right and wrong you're still okay by me, but I do not support your beliefs and I will not allow you to screw around with me and mine.

The problem is when ya'll pretend these few crazies don't represent the left, data proves you wrong. "No one wants to take your guns", yes they do. "Abolish ICE isn't a mainstream position", yes it is. Not too long ago, we were told that claiming Democrats wanted socialism was fearmongering and hyperbole. Look how popular Bernie Sanders was.

Maybe you don't agree with all these things, but I'd advise you to take a wider look at the left. You're being overrun by extremists. There are extremists on both sides, for sure, but extremists aren't going mainstream on the right. Nazis are still shunned and a tiny, tiny minority.

Note: The article I linked with the gun survey says half of Democrats surveyed want to ban all guns; I didn't see that question in the survey itself. The question closest was 40% of surveyed Democrats said they wanted to repeal the 2nd Amendment. About 73% of surveyed Democrats said they wanted to ban semi-autos. The question about semi-autos may be misleading because anti-gunners are notoriously uninformed. They may have thought "semi-autos" were "assault rifles". 40% wanting to repeal the 2nd Amendment is #ing crazy though. And yes I know Democrats aren't synonymous with the left.

a reply to: face23785

Define specifically what you mean by the term "left."

Then prove who is and isn't a member of this group.

Betcha can't.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: face23785

Define specifically what you mean by the term "left."

Then prove who is and isn't a member of this group.

Betcha can't.

Political left

Most Democrats are politically left. If 40% of Democrats support something, it's a fair assumption that the support among the left for that position is similar. Of course, as I said, they're not synonymous, so there's not a 1-to-1 correlation, just like there's not a 1-to-1 correlation with Republicans and conservatives. Many surveys don't ask whether you're left or right, they ask your party affiliation. This is the best data we have. The data shows extremist positions are getting disturbingly popular among Democrats.

a reply to: face23785

Using a citation to explain what you mean when you use a term is pretty specious; what do you personally mean?

Most Democrats are center-right, as are most Americans, that is to say, they are basically authoritarian rather than revolutionary or even libertarian.

You're making general assumptions about groups of people you don't know, yet, you're making very specific claims about those people. I understand that this is not uncommon, but I think it's an important clarification here. Further, I think we would get a lot further in establising common understandings again if we resisted using false categories like "left and right" and merely spoke to each other as individuals.

I'm curious, can you show us this data that "shows extremist positions are getting disturbingly popular among Democrats?"

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: face23785

Using a citation to explain what you mean when you use a term is pretty specious; what do you personally mean?

Most Democrats are center-right, as are most Americans, that is to say, they are basically authoritarian rather than revolutionary or even libertarian.

You're making general assumptions about groups of people you don't know, yet, you're making very specific claims about those people. I understand that this is not uncommon, but I think it's an important clarification here. Further, I think we would get a lot further in establising common understandings again if we resisted using false categories like "left and right" and merely spoke to each other as individuals.

I'm curious, can you show us this data that "shows extremist positions are getting disturbingly popular among Democrats?"

I don't believe in everyone having their own personal definitions for words. Words mean what they mean.

I actually agree with you about the labels. I wish we'd abolish party labels, so people actually had to get to know the candidates and their positions instead of just looking what letter is after their name.

a reply to: face23785

You may not believe in the fact that not everyone uses a dictionary defintion of words, but it is nonetheless true.

Our society is being destroyed by identity politics in so far as we use personal definitions of certain characteristics (race, gender, religious or political belief) as generic categories to define ourselves or others.

We are all many qualities at once.

In terms of American political parties, it's really easy for me to see that they represent themselves and their own interests not the people or theirs.