Easy to win trade wars, Donald?

a reply to: Jake56

Listen here.

First of all, if you want to go somewhere on the internet where it is accepted that you may not have an opinion on anything outside your own nation, go to stormfront, where the scum hang out, and delve into that intellectually vacant pool of human debris. This website is not limited either in terms of the intellect of the people posting, or in terms of the geographic boundaries encompassing posts or responses thereto. If your skin is not thick enough, or your argument so weak, that it cannot withstand objective, external analysis, you are the one with the problem. Got that? Peachy.

The USA has, in terms of its governments finances, and the finances of its regular citizens, been in decline for some decades... But not in terms of the company power and profit, the lions share (and a growing share year on year) being pushed toward the people who did the least to secure the quality of the product sold, those being the executives, those who only have to own things to earn money, rather than actually putting any solid physical effort into a damned thing.

These are FACTS, they are not points which need yet another exploration to establish themselves as such, they are merely how it ACTUALLY is, and it is ALSO a fact that it is getting WORSE now, not better. The gap between those who do the work, and those who benefit most from it, is a more yawning gulf every day, and Trump is not looking to solve that in the least, because HE is one of those who relies on the system operating the way it does, to keep himself from having to lay a brick or swing a hammer himself.

As for your assertion that people only see things when they are next to them... I do not know what problems you have with your eyesight, but I have been able to see things going on clear the other side of this planet, since... Oh... I came to awareness of my own existence? Its only gotten easier to see what is happening now, what has already happened, and what is going to happen since then, so if YOU are having a problem seeing things from new perspectives, just because you aren't in the geographical location concerned, then it is YOU that has the problem. Perhaps stop embracing how utterly limited you are, and improve yourself a bit, then you can keep up with the rest of us? Hows that?

Questions

How many other times did you Mook the presidents way of doing things. Thinking he was doing it wrong?

Did you think trumonwinning was going to kill the economy and put unemployment numbers high?

Did you agree with hilllary, that trump’s tax plan would lead to 3.3 million new people out of work?

Did you think Trump tweeting about North Korea would lead to a war?

If the answer to the above questions, are yes?

Why should people listen to your newest- Chicken Little - complaint??

a reply to: TrueBrit

Yeah all that and it just looks like you've been triggered by a poster who experienced first hand as oppose to you and "Facts" but didn't post a link, so rather, you view and opinion of the matter.

I also call BS on "I have been able to see things going clear the other side..." No, you haven't. Many times you've been called out.

You like the dictionary no doubt, ultimately resulting in nothing but a facade.

a reply to: Irishhaf

One if the main reasons why factory and manufacturing jobs left was because the wages were high and unions started gaining ground.

a reply to: DerBeobachter
Remind me again what nation created the current global market? We created it to contain the Russians during the cold war. We can use the same powers on any nation. Including communist China.

America still holds the power and we are becoming more independent every year. Sadly our politicians have been selling out the American public with horrible trade deals for years. As soon as Trump tried to fix it the masses collectively lost it. Yet the majority don't even understand it. Funny we live in a nation where people will lose their collective **** over something they don't have the slightest knowledge of.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Take your word salads somewhere else pal...

originally posted by: JAY1980
a reply to: DerBeobachter
Remind me again what nation created the current global market? We created it to contain the Russians during the cold war. We can use the same powers on any nation. Including communist China.

America still holds the power and we are becoming more independent every year. Sadly our politicians have been selling out the American public with horrible trade deals for years. As soon as Trump tried to fix it the masses collectively lost it. Yet the majority don't even understand it. Funny we live in a nation where people will lose their collective **** over something they don't have the slightest knowledge of.

Well if you are talking multinationals, stocks and shares then the Dutch did over 300 years before the Cold War began. Do i win a prize?

I just don't see how the USA expects to win against China and the EU........ one of them maybe but both?

Perhaps someone who is more knowledgeable about Mr. Trump's protectionist policies can enlighten me.

Trump tweets: 'Trade wars are good, and easy to win'

Reuters
1. Why are they good?
It seems to me that increasing the tariffs on products imported into the country is little more than a tax passed on to the consumer; namely all of us.

2. How are they easy to win?
How long must we endure higher prices on products before we win? And when we win, what do we win? How is product availability and cost affected by winning?

3. Why does Mr. Trump believe that his implementation of tariffs will lead to a different result than those expected by leading economists?
Conventional thinking about protectionism is that it is contrary to the principles of the free market, and is likely to lead to global economic contraction. Are there any examples of how trade wars have benefited the United States?

4. Isn't it possible that a trade war could quickly spiral out of control?
We live in a Just-In-Time economy. Products and materials flow through the system at a pace that is dictated by the fundamentals of the free market. Given the massively complicated and interdependent nature of 21st century global trade, isn't it possible that the effects of tariffs and controls placed on one set of products could cascade through the system and suddenly make some items scarce and prohibitively expensive?

5. Are we permanently injuring other global alliances with this trade war?
Until we go full isolationist, we still have a few global allies. It appears that many countries, including long-term close allies, are angry with the United States for summarily undoing trade negotiations that have been on-going since the end of WW II. It stands to reason that we will need the help of these nations at some time in the future. Will this trade war leave a "bad taste" in the mouths of these friendly nations; perhaps resulting in luke-warm support where they may have unconditionally supported us in the past?

I see a lot of people supporting the President's actions without providing any satisfying evidence that his "trade war" will help me and my family. I'm just looking for a few answers.

-dex

a reply to: JAY1980

Or what? You are going to prove the hypocrisy of your position by getting all snowflakey about it?

Oh, and for your information, if my contributions to this topic were a food stuff, they would be the beef on the table, not the rabbit food.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Point I. Whenever an OP never responds to the original question they have exposed themselves as an "alternate" operative

Point II

Solly but your way off base with false statements and misrepresentation of fact. Again the original OP and now I must have hit a "truth" button for you to surface. So who is it that is actually destroying the British empire over in England? That's how we see it along with my family in England. Oh, and I can discuss "your" country because we have eyes and boots on the ground near London. I also do realize that the Scots are really close with the Russians.

Did you enjoy the wedding?

a reply to: Jake56

The original OP was well crafted, and made points which I think need making. I have no problem with it. Your response to the OP was savagely misinformed, and your response to Painterz, which was the post which I actually responded to, was STAGGERINGLY, woefully off base.

Painterz correctly stated that America the entity, feels put upon for reasons that do not actually exist. Their post correctly identified that in all but a few ways, America has done very well out of a pseudo imperialist attitude to the rest of the world, and people within America, including gormless halfwits of Trumps sort and status, have gained vast fortunes through the unrelenting abuse of the resources of other nations, be they work forces who amount to slave labour in the third world, or in terms of mineral resources mined on the cheap and taken from nations for whom selling these things at a PROPER price point, would have been much more beneficial than being essentially hoodwinked out of their resources.

Your response to the facts as stated by Painterz, namely that America has done very well out of the time between the Second World War and now, was utterly absent any factual rebuttal of Painterz position, but was full of lies, misrepresentations, and outright parroted rhetoric from one of the least successful billionaires ever to live on the face of this Earth, the ignorant savage that you elected to your Presidency last time.

And it is THAT which drew my ire, as it always does, when some wannabe jackbooted halfwit, decides to parrot someone else's lies, rather than even having the decency or intelligence to come up with their own. If you do not like being called out for it, I suggest you start doing a better job of crafting your BS, rather than using templates provided by known conmen.

a reply to: [post=23529029]strongfp[/posnslavets]

So, you dont mind slave labor and dangerous work conditions where they use suicide nets to keep their slaves from diving off the building to end their misery?

a reply to: strongfp

Unions have done more to hurt unions than anything a politician did.

Ill give you two examples off the top of my head, once upon a time (haven't looked it up recently so my information is dated).
New York school district has a building where teachers that are no longer allowed to work in the class room (variety of reasons) go and sit while still getting paid, why you ask? The union wont let the district fire them which means they sit in an office collecting a pay check doing nothing...


Now lets take a look at the VA, down in Puerto rico I believe a GS employee got popped for bribery and witness intimidation, we was fired took his case to court with union support and got his job back.

Or those two nice ladies also GS employee's, that used the power of their position to facilitate a job transfer into a job that did less work but kept their pay where it was at, and abused the system to get the FED to take care of the houses they left behind. Union supported them, they are still working for the FED.

In cases where criminal conduct has occurred, or rampant malicious abuse of the system has occurred the union should really learn to say F it they should be fired.

Why you might ask... easy cases like these allow those that want unions to be gone to whip up public sentiment against the unions leading to union busting.

Unions still have a place in the world, but they have to learn how to get out of their own way.

A bunch of bluster.

China has been taking advantage of us for decades now. The Chinese people are quite intelligent and hard-working, plus they have a sense of honor that their government uses to its advantage. But perhaps their largest advantage over us economically is that the Chinese think in longer terms. Where we make decisions based on this year's profit margin, China makes decisions based on how well it will benefit their overall position 20 years down the road.

It has worked. China now has us in a very precarious position.

Our products are difficult to sell in China. They have already had a form of tariffs on us for some time: government restrictions on foreign trade. Want to see your product in China? Fine... first you have to invest in China by moving your company there, then you have to partner with a Chinese company so they get some of the profit, and finally, should you in any way not do whatever the Chinese want, they'll happily take your technology you brought over and just start making it themselves. Screw your US patent; China won't recognize it. They only care about the Chinese patent, which they gave to someone else who is Chinese.

Their workers are happy to have a job, and they consider doing that job an honor. What do we do? We march in the streets because we don't get $15 an hour to flip hamburgers at McDonald's, and get all butt-hurt when we are expected to make good hamburgers instead of spending our day yakking about American Idol. strongfp had the most realistic post in this thread... we are our own worst enemy when it comes to trade.

The trade war so many are terrified of has been ongoing for quite some time; the only difference between then and now is that now we are the ones firing back, finally. Does China intend to retaliate? Probably. But what can they retaliate on? Their workers do not have the income ours do, so we have a larger economic base in terms of capital. China does not have the latest technology, save what they have taken from US companies. And right now, China is in the midst of realizing their goal: a technological growth spurt to propel them into economic superiority... some would argue they are already there. They need the US. Badly. Bigly.

We need them, too, and I want to see a fairer trade relationship with China. I'll admit it; I have parts I am working with right now that I ordered from China. My PCB supplier is a Chinese company. I have no issue dealing with China, but I do have an issue when China uses unfair practices. In other words, I may order something form China if it is going for 20 cents on the dollar what I would pay for it here, but I never depend on Chinese goods until they are in-house and verified. China does not play by the same rules we do, and what I order may not be what I get, or there may be delays getting it, or there may be extra charges that I am not aware of. I am very cautious when ordering form China, to the point that I will pay a little extra, gladly, for a US importer to take some of that uncertainty out of the equation.

The tariffs are not a way to raise prices or to slow Chinese imports. That is simply not the purpose. The purpose is to force China into a decision: either eat the extra cost, knowing that you are enriching the US by doing so, or negotiate in good faith. If they will negotiate in good faith... acknowledge US patent rights, open up their own trade restrictions with us, stop pulling US companies away from our shores... then we don't need tariffs.

I find it almost amusing, but also very sad, that people don't seem to understand the first thing about negotiation. In every negotiation, one must deal from a position of strength. If I want to buy a car, my position of strength is that I have the money the dealer wants. You want my money, I expect a good deal. They have a car I want. I want their car, I have to cough up some money. In a good deal, I pay little enough so I am satisfied with the exchange and it benefits me, and yet enough that the dealer makes a profit as well. We both "win." If I go in determined that I can't live without that car, the dealer is going to take me for every dollar he can. He'll win bigly, but I'll wind up a lot poorer than I needed to be for agreeing to the deal. I tried to deal from a position of weakness.

The tariffs are our position of strength. Trump is a master negotiator. Let's see what he can do. Let the pro do what he does best, and then we'll decide if he did a good job or not. Better than crying because the other side is complaining they're not able to take us to the cleaners any more...

TheRedneck