What is it that you really want? (immigration)

Trump committed the sin of bypassing the networks on his way to the presidency. Or rather, he got in without paying them the usually "run for president" toll. (By manipulating them into giving him free coverage.)

The Dems are owned by those networks (except Fox, of course). And the networks need to assert themselves and prove they are still relevant and powerful.

None of this truly has anything to do with Trump's politics. Martin Luther King could return from the dead, switch bodies with Trump and take over his presidency, and the networks (and dems) would still try to demonize him out of office.

a reply to: network dude

Trump didn't start this mess, he is trying to fix it. I was at my Grandmother's house last Father's Day weekend and she turned on the NBC news after dinner. They were in an uproar about children being in cages, calling it "concentration camp like," saying that "We have inside video of the facilities which is abhorrent, which we will show you in a moment." And then the reporter talks for a minute, bantering with the newscaster, and then...nothing. No video, no anything, next story. I sat there and said "They just made a claim they had footage of something abhorrent and concentration camp like, and explained how awful these facilities were and had evidence, yet did not show it, sounds like a pile of # to me." My grandma just replied, "fake news, always fake news." I wasn't sure if she was being sarcastic or not, but she was right on the button with it. I never watch the news, they spin everything, use loaded talking points just like those loaded similes between these holding facilities and Nazi concentration camps. They do not do any digging into the situation in order to inform the populace about anything, they inform the people about lies and then spin those lies to seem truthful, they offer evidence but do not give it, they show old footage and proclaim it as new, they are not to be trusted ever.

See where this is going? This is a non-story, it is distraction concocted by the media, probably influenced by someone above them, Soros or one of his minions would be of the kind. This has been a problem for years upon years and now it is coming to light because Trump is POTUS. The entire media will find whatever string that is loose and pull at it to unravel something that does not exist as a "real problem." Illegal immigration is the problem not the holding cells. The holding cells have food and water and A/C and space to move around and books and games, it is likely better from where the kids came from.

What if this was the solution, not saying it is just, however, 3rd world countries across the world profit from indentured slavery. Most of the # we buy comes from China or Vietnam or some Phillipino island, maybe even from the Middle East. Telecommunications hubs are ran out of the Middle East, you name it, they produce jobs and pay little to a lot of people. Why not just take anyone that is illegal and give them a job in their own secluded area. That can be seen as a punishment or as a prospect, you get caught crossing the border illegally you will be forced to work for our country, you will be forced to pay taxes, and we will seclude you from outside travel until you pass tests (speak basic English, understand government basics, pass health screens, documented behavior while working, etc) in order to become a free citizen.

It really goes against everything I believe on treating human beings, but if you break the law, trying to Invade a country in order to profit off of another country's toil, then you better prove you are worthy to want to move there, not just to be a burden on the rest of the people that laid the ground for you.

This is the world we live in, I wish it were different, I wish there were no barriers and everyone got along and committed no hateful crimes, but that is a fantasy, and in order to have a great nation we cannot have invaders running amok, tapeworms feeding off of bile until they thrive off of your hearty blood. Offer them a job, an internship, a grueling one that we Americans (mostly) have had to deal with in order to get where we want to be. We had to fight for it. We can not allow people from a ruined country come here and turn it into their own country, thus turning it to # once again.

a reply to: network dude

I hope you realize that you have proven my point. You weren't interested in the issue or the specifics of what people believed.

In fact, I took the bait and got in to the specifics of what I think would be good policy.

And you bailed on the thread.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: howtonhawky
a reply to: introvert

Perhaps the plan was to trade the kids to mexico for funding?

It is obvious that returning them was never on their minds until they were forced too.

I do wonder why if trump wanted the wall he passed on the 6 billion offered then he passed on the 25 billion offered.

Must be cause mexico is gonna pay for it still.not

All goes back to my original point. This has nothing to do with finding solutions. It's about having a political tool to beat each other with.

The OP falls for it and so does most everyone else.

We're not looking for reasonable solutions. If so, the wall nonsense would be dismissed for the stupidity it is.

The wall is stupid but having mostly completely open borders where anyone can stroll in from anywhere with no rules or regulations is Einstein/Telsa level brilliance!!!

Im glad a majority of Americans don't believe in your IDIOTIC idea which is exactly what that is. It is the epitome of stupidity.

That clearly itself implies some checks in place.

WHAT ARE CHECKS TO YOU?? Someone at the border with welcome pamphlets, shaking someone's hands and allowing them in the country?

That's your checks I assume huh? If not please give a DETAILED explanation in which NETWORK asked and didn't receive one. That's why you can't debate or reason with liberals they won't give you a straight answer.

Regardless you open border idiots will never get what you want.

a reply to: ker2010

The wall is stupid but having mostly completely open borders where anyone can stroll in from anywhere with no rules or regulations is Einstein/Telsa level brilliance!!!

Did I not say we would have to have rules and regulations in place?

Im glad a majority of Americans don't believe in your IDIOTIC idea which is exactly what that is. It is the epitome of stupidity.

What is my idea?

WHAT ARE CHECKS TO YOU?? Someone at the border with welcome pamphlets, shaking someone's hands and allowing them in the country? That's your checks I assume huh?

If not please give a DETAILED explanation in which NETWORK asked and didn't receive one.

Yes, pamphlets. And free $100 bills that come directly out of your pocket.

Anyway, I started to give Networkdude a basis to start off of and he bailed on the conversation. He, like many of you, are not interested in details or the ideas of others.

You just want to bash on those you disagree with.

That's why you can't debate or reason with liberals they won't give you a straight answer.

It appears you cannot even wait for answers before spitting your hatred.

Regardless you open border idiots will never get what you want.

See. You didn't even wait for details to bash before you bashed me. So it appears your request is dishonest.

a reply to: introvert

Still no answers, it seems like you are dishonest by giving some BS answer as to why you won't give an actual answer.

If you don't have answers just say it.

You guys are right on one thing however, this thread was a waste of time and network should have knew that before he posted it.

Mexico is 1/2 responsible here...are they not. Mexico guards their Southern border and sends those crossing illegally straight to jail. So why all the flak for us protecting our border. I'll say it again, if one of those make believe terrorist walked across that pourous Southern border and blew something up...….that border would be closed off as tight as a frogs butt. And a frogs butt it so tight it's waterproof. Why does NO ONE think this can happen. If the make believe terrorist can learn to almost fly a plane....don't think it would he as hard to learn a little Spanish and walk across the border and be treated pretty damn decent. 3 meals a day, medical & dental needs meet while being held...all the while no speak the English.


We are where we are because of OURSELVES. When Reagan opened the gate, it was yugggggggge mistake. Started with a few hundred thousand migrant workers, now it's around 25 million.....how the f--k does that happen in such a short time. Because WE LET IT HAPPEN.

a reply to: ker2010

Still no answers, it seems like you are dishonest by giving some BS answer as to why you won't give an actual answer.

No answers, or BS answers you didn't like?

You are contradicting yourself.

As I said, you do not appear to be interested in any discussion on the matter. You want to spit your hatred and talk trash.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: network dude

I hope you realize that you have proven my point. You weren't interested in the issue or the specifics of what people believed.

In fact, I took the bait and got in to the specifics of what I think would be good policy.

And you bailed on the thread.

I'm really sorry, I had to cook dinner, give the grandson a bath, feed the chickens, and spend a few hours with my wife. I was unaware that we had a schedule here. I am interested in discussing the nuts and bolts of an "open" border. If you can retract your claws for a few hours, perhaps that is possible.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: network dude

I hope you realize that you have proven my point. You weren't interested in the issue or the specifics of what people believed.

In fact, I took the bait and got in to the specifics of what I think would be good policy.

And you bailed on the thread.

I'm really sorry, I had to cook dinner, give the grandson a bath, feed the chickens, and spend a few hours with my wife. I was unaware that we had a schedule here. I am interested in discussing the nuts and bolts of an "open" border. If you can retract your claws for a few hours, perhaps that is possible.

My apologies.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: network dude

I hope you realize that you have proven my point. You weren't interested in the issue or the specifics of what people believed.

In fact, I took the bait and got in to the specifics of what I think would be good policy.

And you bailed on the thread.

I'm really sorry, I had to cook dinner, give the grandson a bath, feed the chickens, and spend a few hours with my wife. I was unaware that we had a schedule here. I am interested in discussing the nuts and bolts of an "open" border. If you can retract your claws for a few hours, perhaps that is possible.

I too am interested in the details.

originally posted by: Metallicus
Democrats don’t care about these people except for how they can be used to fuel their hate of the President. If it were about the people it would have been over by now. There is no pleasing some people so better to just ignore them.

Yet, they wonder why there is a huge disconnect. They discuss the disconnect as the cause of a global political shift, towards so-called "populist" politicians. The thing is, it is this very lack of engagement that is the problem - it's the constant ridicule or poo-pooing of differing points of view that has led to a disenfranchised populous and ultimately a leader that they simply cannot stand. Oddly enough, I was no fan of Trump - in fact, I only kind of like him now because I tend to go against the grain and in this world, the grain is decidedly against Trump.

So anyway, surely discussion with the "left" is still possible, right? Queue Twitter:

In case you were wondering what Nazis sound like. pic.twitter.com/ClEuSZJOh0— Ian Miles Cheong (@stillgray) June 25, 2018

Now I'm reminded of that famous line from Alien - "Game over man, game over!".

If the Tweet didn't embed properly, the link is here

a reply to: introvert

I am a hardware guy. I don't do well with theory. So when I ask about this, I am interested if the bordeer will consist of thousands of miles of open terrain, where anyone can stroll over, and go as far as they want? Or will there be some checkpoints, where people will walk through, so you can stop the ones you deem unfit?

If there are no checkpoints then I don't see how you can claim anything other than completely open borders.

originally posted by: theatreboy
a reply to: network dude


Brother, I thought you were smarter than this....

What they want...open borders, no limitations. Well, strike that, they will not want hard working, old school moral value minded people coming to this country. But otherwise, let 'em all in!

This is it. That is what seems, at least. Now, open borders per se, will probably not ruin (completely) the 1st world, in the long-term. However, it will take decades for the balance to normalise. So, in the short-term, the 1st world will suffer job losses (there would still be some economic benefit for business growth) and personal economic pains - but like I said, business, perhaps not so much.

It's akin to flooding a market with money, (such as printing more). First, you will see a spike in inflation temporarily, before it normalises. When I say temporarily, I am thinking of a timeframe of 1-3 generations (at a guess). In a practical sense - we're screwed.

However, this would also possibly see a rise in the standard of living in the 3rd world and growing economies. It seems like there are some with the desire to hard lock the wheel of this metaphorical ship - because it takes a significant time for significant change and they are in a hurry - but I fear such a hard course correction (as I've pointed out above) will cause way more problems than it solves in the immediate future. And as such, I now honestly don't know if the long-term effects will be as good as some think.

Lastly, another good point I noticed, was from Lab4Us - a few posts below yours - stating that it is an attempt by the Dems to keep some semblance of a voter base - which is incredibly cynical of us - but, I can't see any other logical reasons why.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: network dude

I'd say the majority of people on both sides of the debate want the same thing: A political issue to bash the other side with over the head.

The Left doesn't care about immigration. The Right doesn't care about immigration.

^^This. The left doesn't care and wants more voters on the rolls and welfare. The right needs cheap labor.

IMO, and many have repeated numerous times, immigration will fix itself once the jobs, and welfare, are no longer available. When ICE shows up at the large corporations to take the execs to jail, then we'll know they are serious.

a reply to: network dude

Yes, I think there needs to be checkpoints, as I never have said anything about "completely" open borders.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: network dude

Yes, I think there needs to be checkpoints, as I never have said anything about "completely" open borders.

so we would need something like......a wall or something to go on both sides of the checkpoints, so people would know how to get in.

Who gets to decide who is allowed in and who isn't?

a reply to: SuperDaveAPK

why would we want to stop someone from coming here to work if they are not receiving benefits or voting rights?

if you look at history and what has made us great it has been people coming to work and what has hurt us is people draining the system.

a reply to: network dude

so we would need something like......a wall or something to go on both sides of the checkpoints, so people would know how to get in.

If our checkpoints were fast and easy to get through, with must less intervention and restriction, why would we need a wall?

To stop a few bad guys that don't want to go through the checkpoint?

originally posted by: howtonhawky
a reply to: SuperDaveAPK

why would we want to stop someone from coming here to work if they are not receiving benefits or voting rights?

if you look at history and what has made us great it has been people coming to work and what has hurt us is people draining the system.

Did you forget I answered that for you, however you chose to insult me as opposed to refute my logic? A little refresher....

originally posted by: Alien Abduct

originally posted by: howtonhawky
a reply to: Alien Abduct

yes we have jobs

We wouldn’t be able to sustain the amount of jobs needed with your proposal to essentially open the borders. Show me with citations where our economy could provide at least a million new jobs a month for our new immigrant population flowing over the border. This would be ON TOP of the new jobs needed to sustain our native population.

we have a minimum wage

Working 40/week @ minimum wage = POOR

the states can regulate how many we let in

That’s not a State function. Even if it were it would be very stupid, just because California (for example) wants to let in millions of immigrants it’s not fare to the other States where lots of those immigrants will likely end up (illegally).

remove the federal protections and the handouts while keeping track of them

So, give away all available jobs and flood the job market with a massive unsustainable influx of workers that there aren’t enough jobs for and then on top of that waste an incredible amount of resources and a massive amount of money so we can... “keep track of them”?

the numbers would not change much

The pay rates would reach minimum wage for jobs that should be paying middle to upper middle class jobs, it’s already happening.

this would not mean they could become citizens unless they go through the proper channels

There is already proper channels in place.

why would someone seeking handouts come here if there were no handouts?

Probably to seek a job. Even at minimum wage, I job in the United States would pay much more than they could dream of making in their home country. But for Americans? See my first comment in this post. Hint: work 40/week @ minimum wage = POOR

why would the dems want them here if they could not garner more votes?

Cheap labor, illegal votes/future votes, they feel sorry for them even at the expense of the well being of their fellow Americans that will have to compete for the (now even lower minimum wage) jobs with them.

think logically as to the current problems with the current system and find solutions

If this country used your definition of logic it would collapse in under five years.

is there some incentives i am missing?

Yeah as a matter of fact you did miss some. Where is the incentives for the United States to let in millions and millions of immigrants collapsing the job market, making millions of Americans and immigrants unemployed, burdening the safety net to the brink of failure, raising the deficit by a trillion and subsequently eventually causing total failure of our society?

.... you just gonna insult me again?