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Dems are making a big deal over standard operating procedure

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posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 09:59 AM
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not my job to raise the rest of the worlds poor kids




posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:02 AM
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a reply to: JBurns

Is the little baby upset about something his dear leader that would never lie did. AWWWW ish ok little buddy.....here here have shome milk



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:03 AM
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originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: Xcalibur254



My *only* issue are those who do so unlawfully. Admittedly, in their position I'd probably do the exact same damn thing for my wife/children. Not probably, I would without question. But our laws have to be enforced as well, otherwise our entire system demonstrates just how illegitimate it really is (double standards, etc)



Wow, you've actually admitted that you sympathize with the people who are seeking Asylum illegally given their circumstances, because you'd do the same, and yet still agree that taking their children is the right thing to do......

I guess I applaud you for consistency, but is the implication in that is that you would consider it the right thing for the US government to take your kids when you tried it? I'm really surprised that someone can put themselves in someone else's shoes and still think they deserve to be treated inhumanely because of a 'zero tolerance' rule that is for the most part devoid of moral righteousness.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: JBurns



But it isn't a Trump administration policy. Zero tolerance is the policy, just like zero tolerance for drug dealers.


That is where your contradiction comes in to play. Your OP says this:



The administration's policy is ZERO TOLERANCE of arresting all law breakers.


So it isn't the admins policy, but it is. Which is it?

Are you trying to give the admin credit for what you deem good, a zero tolerance policy, but deflect the consequences of that policy away from the admin, taking children from their parents?



If two parents are drug dealers (or any kind of criminal) and are taken to jail, the kids can't just stay at home by themselves. They *have* to be placed with family/guardians OR the State has to look after them (young children, especially)


True, but I do not think dealing drugs and crossing the border illegally are comparable crimes. It's like comparing jay walking to armed robbery. We often do not look twice at a jay walker, but expect action to be taken against an armed robber.



What other choice is their RE: the children? For ANY arrest, not just for immigration violation related arrests.


That is where the argument falls apart. If you cannot justify the actions without creating false equivalencies, perhaps we need to revamp the argument.



The false statement is claiming this is new to Trump. Remember the pictures the left circulated a few weeks ago? And blamed Trump yet they turned out to be from Obama-era? Yeah, claiming SEPARATIONS only happen under Trump is the real lie The truth is that SEPARATION happens any time a child's caregiver(s) are arrested. Zero tolerance simply means the law is fully enforced, without discretion from individual officers. And in reality, officers *still* have personal discretion regardless of policy - if you want to be realistic.


Saying this isn't new to Trump does not deflect responsibility for the actions he has taken with his own policies. Crying about the same thing happening under Obama is just deflection. Obama did not have a zero tolerance policy. Trump does.

He has to own that. Good or bad.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:07 AM
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Actually the MEDIA is the one making the big deal and TRIGGERING all sides, purposely and without regret.

Today I truly stopped engaging, unless something interests me. I'll be reading more than responding, but I already pretty much can tell this isn't going to end pretty.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:09 AM
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What should be made clear for all to understand: it isn't "the Dems" doing this.

It is party leadership playing into a narrative that is likely handed down to them from the same source as the media. But the media is who is doing it. Our only course of action is to starve them of an audience.

People with an audience who shouldn't have one, people who do nothing more than sell snake oil and confirm bias...shouldn't have one. The David Hogg's of the world evaporate as soon as they lose their audience.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:11 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan



It is party leadership playing into a narrative that is likely handed down to them from the same source as the media. But the media is who is doing it.


What is the narrative and what exactly is the media "doing"?



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:22 AM
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a reply to: Wayfarer

But separating the children IS NOT policy. And no I DO NOT support it. I simply said there is no other option, when family members/relatives aren't available.

You are heavy on criticism, yet still offer no alternative. I ask again, Where will the kids go when both parents are in jail? (or one parent, for 1 parent families). This is NOT exclusive to immigration either. What happens to minor US citizens/residents when parents/caregivers go to jail? They can't stay by themselves, and that is a logical truth you cannot deny.

If congress did its job, the law could be fixed. Asylum seekers wouldn't have to defensively claim asylum at the hearing (as opposed to point of entry)

Again, separation is wrong. But what do you do instead? Going to start putting all kids in jail with their parents? Because that seems to violate due process, since the child did not commit any damn crimes.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:25 AM
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a reply to: introvert

Damnit, I've made that clear. The POLICY is zero tolerance (ie: actually enforce the law 100% of the time). The POLICY is NOT separation of children, it is an INEVITABLE CONCLUSION when all a child's caregivers are INCARCERATED and when that child's family members can't/won't step up to take care of him/her

Again, where was your outrage when Obama admin was doing the same BS? When those pictures of kids in cages you all circulated around and lied about it happening under Trump admin. THOSE photos were from Obama-era policies that also separated young children from their parents, so where was the outrage?

I'm not saying a solution is not needed. Only exposing the LIE that this is exclusive to Trump. Obama did the same BS, but as usual you try to give him a free pass (by ignoring everything he's done) and focusing solely on Trump.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:26 AM
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The Democrats are going to screw up their agenda and talking points so bad, I think this will lead to active duty military to solve the problem.

I really hope they get off their BS because I don't want confrontations to get out of hand.

People need to realize that the Government is up against multi-billion dollar organizations operating for illegal profits in drugs, human trafficking, and smuggling.

Most of it originates across the Southern Border.

Military might be the only option pretty soon.

Hope I'm wrong.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:27 AM
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a reply to: JBurns


Don't worry. Everyone in America is starting to realize (including the Dims themselves) that the Dims really don't care about this issue, any more than they cared about the DACA kids.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: introvert

The FALSE narrative is that this is a POLICY vs. an outcome/consequence of arrest. The FALSE narrative is that this outcome is exclusive to President Trump's administration, which clearly it is not.

Remember the fake-news photos everyone circulated of kids in cages? And they falsely claimed it was Trump's doing? Then it was discovered those pictures had actually been taken of OBAMA'S ICE child housing facilities.

THAT is the false narrative.

Not the fact that it is going on OR that it is entirely wrong. Because both those statements are true. The false claim comes in when you use it as an attack against Trump while giving loser Obama/Bush/Clinton/et al. a free pass.

You know all those far-left "heros" have spoken in similar terms RE: illegal immigration, right? Even Chuck Schumer.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:33 AM
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a reply to: JBurns



Damnit, I've made that clear. The POLICY is zero tolerance (ie: actually enforce the law 100% of the time). The POLICY is NOT separation of children, it is an INEVITABLE CONCLUSION when all a child's caregivers are INCARCERATED and when that child's family members can't/won't step up to take care of him/her


Yes. His admins policy is what it is. His admin is responsible for the consequences of those polices, whether it specifically intends for those consequences to occur or not.



Again, where was your outrage when Obama admin was doing the same BS? When those pictures of kids in cages you all circulated around and lied about it happening under Trump admin. THOSE photos were from Obama-era policies that also separated young children from their parents, so where was the outrage?


I'm not outraged now, nor are you using a valid argument. That is deflection.

You say Obama did the same thing. Ok. How does that alleviate Trump's admin from the consequences of his own actions/policies?

It's funny, because the more these sorts of things occur, the more we learn Trump is not much different than Obama. At least if we believe what people such as you say.



I'm not saying a solution is not needed. Only exposing the LIE that this is exclusive to Trump. Obama did the same BS, but as usual you try to give him a free pass (by ignoring everything he's done) and focusing solely on Trump.


Ok. So you deflected on to Obama again. Cool.

Let me ask, if Obama's policy was the same, why did Trump change it and why did he reverse that decision?



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:35 AM
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a reply to: introvert

The narrative:

"Trump is evil, he's doing this new thing that you should all be enraged about. No, don't look at the hearings on Capital Hill....look at the border"

That is what the media is doing.

Selectively choosing when and what to lead their army of audience into battle against.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:39 AM
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a reply to: JBurns



The FALSE narrative is that this is a POLICY vs. an outcome/consequence of arrest. The FALSE narrative is that this outcome is exclusive to President Trump's administration, which clearly it is not.


No. It's not. Does that alleviate his admin from the consequences of their actions?



Remember the fake-news photos everyone circulated of kids in cages? And they falsely claimed it was Trump's doing? Then it was discovered those pictures had actually been taken of OBAMA'S ICE child housing facilities. THAT is the false narrative.


Fake photos are the narrative? Is it untrue that similar things are happening under Trump's admin?

If so, the "narrative" would be true, correct?



Not the fact that it is going on OR that it is entirely wrong. Because both those statements are true. The false claim comes in when you use it as an attack against Trump while giving loser Obama/Bush/Clinton/et al. a free pass.


Oh. So this isn't about the actual policies of the consequences of them. It's about pushing blame on to others that no longer have anything to do with it.

Ok. Obama, Bush and the rest are at fault as well. Now what about Trump? Do we hold him to the same standard and criticize him for # policy, or do we continue to cry about Obama?

He's the president now.



You know all those far-left "heros" have spoken in similar terms RE: illegal immigration, right? Even Chuck Schumer.


Heroes? Not sure what that means.

That's an empty platitude used as an ignorant debate tactic. Seen quite a bit of it yesterday.


edit on 21-6-2018 by introvert because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:42 AM
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a reply to: introvert

Do we stop enforcing drug laws because when parents are arrested their kids get separated from them? Do we stop enforcing laws against robbery/rape/murder because when parents are robbers/rapists/murders their kids get separated from them?

Then why in the hell would we stop enforcing our existing immigration law that CONGRESS created.

Lets look at a hypothetical single parent family with two children who are all US citizens. Now, lets say the parent is arrested for drug trafficking and sentenced to 5 years in prison. Where do the kids go? First choice would be a surviving parent/grandparent/relative/legal guardian. However, for this example NONE of those people are willing/able to take care of the minor children. Where do the children go? Exactly where unaccompanied immigrant minors go - custody of DHHR/CPS for placement in foster care OR housing at a State facility for minors.

Unaccompanied minors with immigrants are NOT treated any differently than other unaccompanied minors in the United States.

You're trying to push a false equivalency.

I ask you again: Where should the kids go when all parents/guardians/caregivers are incarcerated/unwilling to take care of them

No deflections please. If you can answer the above question I'll shut up and eat crow.
edit on 6/21/2018 by JBurns because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:43 AM
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This is an image making the rounds in response to the "Children at the border" deal:

www.ericrettberg.com...

Of course "America First" is pointed to while jumping and screaming "TRUMP IS LITERALLY HITLER!", all the while ignoring the context of the image and the time it was made.



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:45 AM
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the arguments against the OP I'm reading in this thread are a total waste of everyones time and completely ridiculous



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:48 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan



The narrative: "Trump is evil, he's doing this new thing that you should all be enraged about. No, don't look at the hearings on Capital Hill....look at the border" That is what the media is doing.


As is their right. They get to report on what they want. They also get to put in their opinion as they want. They are also reporting about the hearings, etc. People claim they are creating narratives about those issues as well.

I think you are being a bit disingenuous.



Selectively choosing when and what to lead their army of audience into battle against.


Hardly. The vast majority of people read about stuff like this and move about their business.

It's almost as if crying about the media's "narratives" have become an alternative to saying "we are not being fed our confirmation bias and it makes me mad".



posted on Jun, 21 2018 @ 10:52 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Some of these folks have never heard of Goodwin's "law" it seems


They don't realize that comparing things to Hitler is an insult to those that actually went through systematic oppression/death at the hands of a tyrannical regime

I wish I could get them to understand that Immigration law violations are no different than other violations of law. If a criminal has children, and the criminal's children has no other caregivers then where do they expect them to go?

I wish they could also understand why the law can't simply be ignored by those charged with enforcing it. Whats next? According to them, I guess we can't arrest single parent criminals for *any* crime, since (without an alternative legal guardian) the kids will be taken from them as well regardless of their immigration status







 
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