U.K. House of Lords gives Parliament a say on May's Britex Deal

a reply to: ScepticScot

Kicking us out of the Galileo project which we've put over a billion £'s of investment into is a good start, childish.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

The EU is saying that the UK will get treated same as other non EU countries. Which is exactly what the UK will be.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Other non EU countries didn't invest billions into the project though.
Are you siding with the EU?

a reply to: paraphi

The EU is far more important to us than we are to the EU. We are a tiny proportion of their trade while they are much of ours. Witntheir massive internal market the EU can definitely make it hurt fo the UK if they do not give us a good deal. I understand totally why pople voted oput , it made sense and the Brussels politicians only have themselves to blame but we mst accept it is going to have consequences.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ufoorbhunter



Thats a load of twaddle.
The EU membership PROHIBITS us from going out and making trade deals with the rest of the world. It stifles our own industry as it forces us to open our markets to cheaper imports yet doesnt allow us to subsidise our own industries in the way other EU states are allowed to.
We have no representation in the making of laws.
There is not one MEP in the entire parliament who has the right to table a new law or call a vote to rescind one. Not ONE.

It's 2018 we should not be tied to a 50's era soviet style parliament that we cannot have any power over.

What is a load of twaddle is the idea that somehow the UK was a follower in the EU W
wje in reality we wereeasers and rulemakeea.something you never hear Breciteers mention...

originally posted by: nwtruckerAn overview. The average citizen doesn't share your concerns. (Your concerns are understandable) I fall into the category of average citizen. My concern, in this case, is the future health, freedom and independence-politically- from foreign nations, groups and Corporations. Having no vested interest, I can afford to see the 'big picture' as opposed to immediate personal survival/gain.


So it's your nation or your profit/comfort zone. It's your call, sir. Choose wisely.

After considering your opinion I admire what you said. You are probably right on jacking in the profit/comfort zone and taking care of the nation instaed

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: ScepticScot

Other non EU countries didn't invest billions into the project though.
Are you siding with the EU?

About 1 billion I believe which along with everything else can be considered in the financial part of the exit negotiations.

The UK is the one asking for special treatment (like if seems to with so many of the issues).

We can't have 'brexit means brexit' but still insist on being special.

Not siding with anyone (mainly as its not a playground fight). Just pointing out that so far our negotiation strategy had been nothing short of woeful.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Thank you for the acknowledgement.

a reply to: nwtrucker

National Sovereignty in a world that you can be on the other side of in around 6 hours?

Seems to me sovereignty is becoming rather a redundant ideology in the information age in which we live.

As to profit well that's the ticket really, it has to be the common everyday working person that profits, anything else is nothing more than the same crap really.

Do you imagine Brexit will bring employment and an increased standard of living to the average person or the poor?

Personally, i see it going the other way, especially so in the first decade, but needs must eh?

a reply to: paraphi

Still, it will be rather uncharted territory and an unstable Europe is how wars begin.

Look at what happened in Yugoslavia and that was what the 1980s.

Imagine if something akin to that happened to France?

It's not beyond the realms of possibility given the religious intolerance and hatred doing the rounds all over the continent. If a serious financial crash were to happen down to the EU deteriorating and breaking up who knows what could be on the cards?

And the English channel might not offer the protection that it once afforded our island nation.

a reply to: ScepticScot

You don't side with your own country wtf?!

a reply to: andy06shake

A short answer would be that very fact of being able to get to the other side is around 'six hours', increases the need for national sovereignty.

Information age? It would depend on what information one found palatable. Yes, influx beyond a healthy level, increase supply and lowers demand-wages- which effects the average person as well as the poor. Brexit, IMO, increases the opportunity for regional prosperity. That opportunity can be wasted if not taken advantage of, however.

It can take ten years, yet in the U.S. unemployment is at it's lowest in 17 years. 3.8%. Unemployment is also at it's lowest in recorded history for African-Americans and Latinos. All in slightly more than one year! Good help cannot be found. LOL. For the first time ever, there are more jobs vacant than unemployed, nation-wide.

As far as homogenizing into some vast average on a planetary basis. Not my cup of tea, thanks much. Besides, that discussion would take it's own thread, one would think. JMO, though.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: ScepticScot

You don't side with your own country wtf?!

My country right or wrong tends to have unfortunate consequences.

Anyway this isn't about UK v EU. Its about incompetent UK negotiators putting party politics ahead of actually getting a decent exit agreement.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
The EU is far more important to us than we are to the EU. We are a tiny proportion of their trade while they are much of ours.

I partially agree. If you are an unelected EU autocrat sitting in Brussels that may well be the case, but if you are sitting in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands et al, where you have significant trade with the UK the picture is somewhat different. Germany, for example has a £25bn+ trade surplus with the UK, and Spain runs at nearly £15bn.

In 2016 the UK exported £240bn to the EU and imported £320bn. The UK is 8% of the goods that flow around Europe. 57% (and rising) of UK exports are outside of the EU, nearly 20% of the total EU share. The EU market is a declining global market, by share, so lashing yourself to a beached/sinking ship is perhaps not the best long term strategy. The trick is to preserve trade across Europe (EU and UK) rather than kill it.

If the unelected EU elite want to create mayhem for people in the EU (you know, the people statistics), who exist outside the Brussels bubble, then that's their choice. But they could choose differently. The spitefulness of the EU is that when faced with a crisis their reaction is to become insular and revert to the ideology of their own creation. Their mantra of "blame Britain for Brexit" indicates how out-of-touch these people are. They are prepared to kill jobs and livelihoods in Spain, or Germany, or Poland, in order to punish Britain for their audacity. That's the spite.

a reply to: SprocketUK

I do believe in democracy, certainly it is a good thing to be engaged in the affairs of our country, to know what's happening & to be able to make changes accordingly wherever appropriate in the best interests of the nation.

That said, I am very pleased to have a dual safety net - both elected & unelected - because quite simply, the great majority of people have NO IDEA what is good, and in the best interests of the country, of its people, and just in general. Seriously.

You have the great unwashed, who through no fault of their own are not privy to mot of the knowledge & schools of thought which lead to proper knowledge, because they haven't received the right education. They are distracted by endless petty arguments, problems & amusements, plus the needs of hand to mouth survival, and cannot take the time to step back from it all & get a grip on what is in their own, and the country's best interests.

But the middle classes are often just as ineffectual, for similar reasons of ridiculous distractions, more accessible due to increased wealth. They have better education, generally, but they are full of self-involvement & self-entitlement, as well as utter myopia concerning what it means to be a citizen in any other nation of the world, in what it means to be an impoverished citizen in this country, and so on. Even the polite, decent folks are often incapable of handling the dissonance arising when they compare their own privilege with the needs of city youth only a few miles away - so they pretend they don't exist. These are often lovely people, charitable, caring - but they cannot compute what they should do in response to strata of society beyond their ken, and so they float around in a bubble. We all do this to a degree - charity fatigue is a genuine effect, dissonance arising when compassion has run its emotive course. However, in the larger scheme of things therefore, many cannot be trusted to make decisions which suit anyone but themselves & a few superficial 'alternative social groupings deserving of compassion'. In extreme cases, when your most stressful issue is whether the village green will have raised beds or simple borders next year, well, you have no business making decisions about who is best suited to reverse the trend of knife crime in the UK's inner cities! This is an example of how our political system is lacking in a realistic mechanism to create a balanced representative body. Thankfully, the counterweight of the Lords exists to fulfill this function as an adjunct to its legislative duties.

What about the upper class/ aristocracy? One might assume that they're the worst of the lot - but in fact, because they tend to have more power than anyone else, when they get together to do good works in the community, they can really pack a punch. The House of Lords is a place where you will find deeply incisive & intellectual legal debate & discussion. Yes, there are entitled, lazy or pernicious Lords, but they tend to do little actual damage & just skip class all day every day, as much as possible, wasting time in debauchery perhaps. Those who do attend, will be those of good conscience, perhaps with enough wealth that they can afford to put all their time & effort, and considerable power, into intense philanthropic service. These folk can make light shine in dark places, and tend to act as the counterbalance against the more extreme idiocy of the parliamentarians, who can be bought & paid for much more easily, especially on the Conservative side. Because that's the nature of seeking money, power, privilege - you can be more easily bought. Those who already have those things, whether from birth or industry, who actually show up to Parliament/ the Lords, tend to be greatly more socially responsible than those corruptibles who will sell their soul to attain the wealth, power & prestige which politics seems to offer them.

It's really a percentages game. 60% Labour MPs are in it for community values. 60% Tory MPs are in it for (legitimate) wealth creation. 60% Labour Lords are in it for philanthropy. 60% Tory Lords are in it for prestige, contacts & dining clubs.

Of course there's much more that could be said - but having the counterweight of the Lords keeps the MPs in check. And although I highlight greater Tory self-interest than Labour, that's self-evident by the nature & purpose of the political philosophy of each party respectively. And in terms of cross-party activities, ALL of the MPs & Lords will generally do GOOD work which holds the corporate excesses of the private sector in check. In this, they cooperate with the free press, who report on those excesses, and hang as Damocles sword over the privilege of ANY political position in defence of the national interest. So the system perpetuates, and hopefully, the good wins out over the bad.

However, wealth corrupts, and the wealthiest of all are likely to be the most corrupt, over time. They protect themselves with very clever legal & business/political schemes, so even the best & brightest can find themselves banging their heads against a fortress wall from time to time. It's about doing what we can, what's in our power to change for the good. Finding opportunities to leverage positive changes at greater levels of complexity so far as it's in our power to do so, trying not to get ourselves bumped off in the process...

God is sovereign over all, and we are ultimately accountable before Him - I sincerely believe that. Conscience & the desire for friendship keeps most of us honest, but there are powers in operation that most of us know nothing about. I believe that ultimately, God is not mocked. We are accountable - it is the natural order of civilisation.

a reply to: sapien82

As usual recently it seems ive come to the party late.

strong economy ? the one that's been under austerity measures for a decade ?

'Austerity' has been the pursuit of a political ideology and never has been a financial or economic necessity.

So basically the tories and their pals are the only people to benefit from Brexit!

Tories, Labour, LibDems - all pissing in the same pot, or to be more exact eating from the same trough.
Their primary concern is to maintain the status quo.
Why all the stalling over Brexit? Simply because the 'elite' have no desire to leave as they wish to maintain their control.

a reply to: Kandinsky

I'm worried we'll drop into another recession and wishing we had a crystal ball.

I live in North East England, we've never been out of recession!
Another few years is a small price to pay in order to regain our independent sovereignty.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

I just don'r see why we should meddle with something that works already and doesn't need fixing.

The EU works and doesn't need fixing?

The EU is a bloated, undemocratic, autocratic, amoral and corrupt entity that needs eradicating.

I don't think anyone fails to recognise the benefits of a Free Trade Association with our continental neighbours but I, and the majority of UK voters, have no desire for political union, (an openly stated goal of the EU).

All the bickering and 'negotiating' are blatant deflection tactics aimed at derailing the democratic wishes of the British people to leave the EU. It shouldn't take all this time, and money, in settling what should have been something akin to an amicable divorce.

Its all smoke in mirrors with the aim of maintaining the status quo and the gravy train.

originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ufoorbhunter



Thats a load of twaddle.
The EU membership PROHIBITS us from going out and making trade deals with the rest of the world. It stifles our own industry as it forces us to open our markets to cheaper imports yet doesnt allow us to subsidise our own industries in the way other EU states are allowed to.
We have no representation in the making of laws.
There is not one MEP in the entire parliament who has the right to table a new law or call a vote to rescind one. Not ONE.

It's 2018 we should not be tied to a 50's era soviet style parliament that we cannot have any power over.

What is a load of twaddle is the idea that somehow the UK was a follower in the EU W
wje in reality we wereeasers and rulemakeea.something you never hear Breciteers mention...

And THAT particular point has no bearing whatsoever upon the fact that the people voted to leave but that vote is being ignored by those with the power to get the job done.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

these house of lords you mention is the very reason why we do not have a democracy in the United Kingdom!

their position and power inherited and maintained by some draconian law which provides that you are entitled to a life better than anyone else born through a vaginal cavity by virtue of your surname!

so not sure why everyone still thinks we live in some modern world where a democracy is the reason we all do what we do !
because unelected lords and bishops and monarchs do not make a democracy!

a reply to: Freeborn

Better late than never mate , your opinions on these matters are always welcomed by myself !