Evidence for and against the Bible

Originally posted by marg6043
The jewish scribes had a hard time changing the stories of the Egyptian myth of creation into the Jewish history one.

There are a lot of simularities between the two, but we fail to find any evidance of which myth or stroy was first. It could very well be taht the Egyptions adapted the biblical creation myth into thier own theoligy. When you ahve a Deist governemnt Ruled by a living pysical God, beliefs can change rather rabidly.

One of the biggest differants between the hermopolitan and the biblical one is that in the hermopolitan myth, there is no real purpose given to Man. We can only assume that Man was created to worship God under thier myth.

In the biblical creation account. Mankind is told to increase in numbers, and evenually a savior will apprear to reunite man with God.

also not I make a distiction between myth and account in this case because there is no known origin for the hermopolitan creation. While the biblical one could have likely been inspired, by oral tradtion or even writing before Moses penned the 5 accounts in geneisis

again, this is not the best place to firmly disprove or prove the bible is fact or fiction due to ambiguities

You forgot something very important, who came first the egg or the chicken theory, when the bible was written? or compiled by the scribes from the stories passed by generations?

Actually the bible final compilation was not done until the Israelis were already a nation, under one God.

So that bring the theory as who adapted what very much to the other way around, the Israeli people spend most of their ancient days roaming the middle east from city to city adapting the believes and views of the establish civilizations already booming in their paths.

So actually who adapted what is very much not a question but mostly a fact that can be proved even in the bible accounts, Israeli did not become a nation and did not had any roots but the ones later on apply in their compilation of their nomad and errant life.

Three already main and well established cultures were involve in the Israelis lives the Egyptian, Canaanites, and Mesopotamia.

Even the bible Chastises Israel for succumbing to Canaanite influences. Prior to the Bible taking its final form. Israel's educated elite lived in forced exile in Babylon and a century later, under a more benevolent Persian rule when the Persians defeated Babylon and freed the Hebrew leaders.

Any attempt by learned Hebrew scribes to construct their own history of the world, from creation down to the time of the writing of any source document, would have to take into account what their neighbors have said about the same times and places, because the stories of the neighbors were well known and widely circulated at the time.

Remember the times prior of the bible compilations were of Polytheistic cultures, while the final Israeli nation was already monotheistic, so they did have to fit their monotheistic views to create a final product while the stories were taken from polytheistic cultures.

We tend to forget that the old testament is the history of the Israeli people, a group of people that from the beginning were a "nation without land" and the culture of many civilizations.

So again as who took what from who is seems very easy to explain.

I'm proud of you Marg.

But I want to add, that all three Egyptian creation myths are absorbed in Genesis. The three came about at different times in Egypt through various pharoahs and the introduction of new cults. However stylized, the Ptah and Ogdoad story always remained in tact, the sun God's name changed and or assimilited with other deities, as well myths were created around these changes, and every single one of them is reflected in Genesis. In fact, the story of Noah is just another creation myth using the Egyptian theory that Nun would flood the earth every so often and start all over again. The story of Abraham, Jacob, Issac, Esau are all Osiris, Seth and Horus stories.

They don't appear that way to most readers because most have limited knowledge of the Egyptian myths or with their move from Atum and his shared rule with 8 other Gods, to a God trying to usurp the 7 others in the name change to Ra, both of whom favoured the son Osiris, then to the evolution of those with a supreme deity in Aten who favoured the son Seth. And it was at the time Aten made his rise in Egypt via the ThutMOSES pharoahs that Jacob, Joseph and Moses were prominent. Well Aten and Seth were tossed out on their ears around the same time Moses left, and look who pops up as Adam's son. It is obvious the Jews could only relay their history by rewriting what they knew to fit their one God scheme.

There is no doubt that one God worshippers left Egypt, and it is only at this point that the Egyptian myths stop blatantly flowing through Genesis. We are to believe that all nations started as a result of the sons of these patriarchs, when in fact it is more likely the sons were a creation by the scribes to lay claim to that, hence errors like UR of the Chaldees emerge, since obviously at the time of first writing, it was well into the 7th century BCE, and they only knew what they knew.

[edit on 2/20/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

SomewhereinBetween

Thanks you also has some good points, funny the bible indeed is a book of history but in it’s own way and despition of how they saw the world.

Going back to the flood, On December 3, 1872, Assyriologist George Smith.

en.wikipedia.org...(Assyriologist)

Found in the tablets and fragments from a seventh century B.C. from the Assyrian library belonging to King Ashurbanipal. What is known as Tablet Xl of the Gigamesh epic, written in Akkadian, an ancient Semitic language older than Hebrew, he found a flood story that was very similar to the biblical flood account.

One think about the story, it was polytheistic where the Bible was monotheistic, the story has the basic tale.

“The Gods were angry at humanity and determined to wipe our the human race with a flood” the Gods told a man named Utnapishtim to build an ark in secret and prepared for the fateful day.

When the rain started Utnapishtim took his family in the boat and a variety of animals, and a number of artisans.

When the rain stopped and the flood subsided, Utnapishtim released three birds, spaced out over time.

Eventually, the boat landed on top of a mountain. And like in the bible, after the flood the gods regretted their actions against humanity.

Now while it shows the tale of a flood it also shows that the Assyrian flood myth that was written before the bible accounts could have been the model as to the story of Noah and the flood.

You have to only wonder as how the flood story took form in the bible written long after the accounts in these ancient civilizations. Here are some of the flood accounts.

Sumerian ( Eridu Genesis & Kings of Sumer)

Babylonian (Gilgamesh Epic)

Akkadian (Atrahasis Epic)

Chaldean

Hebrew (Genesis)

Greek

Scandinavia

Aztec, Inca, Hopi, Caddo, India, China, Batak

Obviously it was some flood at one time or another and it indeed impacted the ancients as to created myth about as why. Even biblical Archeologist consider the story of Noah’s flood to be part of the of the Myth. Also many Archeologist point at the fact that ancient civilizations were founded around rivers that often flooded.

I think that the big flood that is talk in the stories of many civilizations may have been the same flood that destroy Atlantis. But that is my opinion.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 20-2-2005 by marg6043]

There are Two Books in the Bible that was inspaired by (GOD// Jesus)
The first was Genesis, This book was given to Moses on Mount Sinai to write as a history of the Begining of life on Earth..
The second Book was Revelation. In Revelation, Jesus gave the last book of the Bible to John and it is a book telling us what to look for at the comming of this Time.
Now if you can not get a hold on the Bible and what it says, this is the book for You..
Revelations is all about things to come (No History), Its all about Tomorrow and its easy to understand it if you will take time with it.
Revelations gives you what is about to happen and if you need help to understand the Bible and you Don't trust History, This is Your Book. Read and understand and You will see Prophecies come true right in front of You, That is the very best way to Test the Truth of the Book.........
The Best way to test to see if the teacher is teaching you the truth is to See his traching come true !!!!!!!!!!!
As for Israel Not ever being a country of it own,, Well,, The first land grant that God gave then as a nation Went from all the east cost of the Mediterraneam Sea and all the land East to the to the Red sea which now has other renters on it now, Like Lebanon, Jorden, The Northern part of Saudi Arabia, and Iraq and the western part of Iran. But, They did not keep up on there part of the contract that they made with God, and LOST IT ALL....

Moses did not wrote anything, The first five books of the Torah or Pentateuch, has never been claim as been written by Moses, they were pass for over two thousand years, as the books of Moses but in the last century religious scholars came to the conclusion that the inconsistencies in the idea or Moses been the writer was to obvious.

One inconsistency,
Deuteronomy 34:6 “ And he buried him (moses) in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but not man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day”

This passage not only describes the burial of Moses but also says that the location of his grave is unknown unto this day, indicating that the passage was written well after the death of Moses and couldn’t have been written by him.

Originally posted by marg6043
Moses did not wrote anything, The first five books of the Torah or Pentateuch, has never been claim as been written by Moses, they were pass for over two thousand years, as the books of Moses but in the last century religious scholars came to the conclusion that the inconsistencies in the idea or Moses been the writer was to obvious.

One inconsistency,
Deuteronomy 34:6 “ And he buried him (moses) in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but not man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day”

This passage not only describes the burial of Moses but also says that the location of his grave is unknown unto this day, indicating that the passage was written well after the death of Moses and couldn’t have been written by him.

The location of his grave is unknown not because people forgot over time, but because it was the Lord who buried Moses--that's what the verse says. And it is entirely possible that Moses wrote the Pentateuch until his death, and then Joshua finished Deutoronomy after Moses died.

I think we are being a little to litteral with the Bibles origins. The written old testament was around before King Saul of Isreal

Yet we find no origins for the Egyption myth (hence why it is called a myth)

Originally posted by Biegacz

The location of his grave is unknown not because people forgot over time, but because it was the Lord who buried Moses--that's what the verse says. And it is entirely possible that Moses wrote the Pentateuch until his death, and then Joshua finished Deuteronomy after Moses died.

So you telling me that "people forgot over time" but they remember that moses wrote the books, right?

So is very convenient to forget one thing but remember the other one.

Its this what the preacher tells you at church? perhaps he knows then the truth as why somethings are conveniently remember but others not.

It makes not sense, see I gave you a passage from the bible itself, and not where it said that moses said that he wrote the books.

Do you have a quote. Perhaps telling how god buried him. If people can remember that but can not remember were but it does remember that he did wrote them it makes not sense.

It's called myth and lore.

[edit on 20-2-2005 by marg6043]

MOSES was a Hebrew born in Egypt about 3400 years ago. He received a formal education and led his fellow Hebrews out of Egypt to the border of Canaan, which later became Israel. He is credited with having written the first five books of the Bible - of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy - which are sometimes called the "Books of Moses" or the "Pentateuch." Many Bible critics have challenged the claim that Moses actually wrote the first five books. But what they cannot challenge is what they can see with their own eyes - that Moses' prophecies about the exile and worldwide scattering of the Hebrews, the unbelievable persecutions, culminating with a restoration of Israel are all visibly, provably, fulfilled in modern times



Concerning the authors of the various books of the Bible, it is widely known that Moses wrote the Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and there is scriptural evidence of it:

"And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord. And he rose early in the morning . . . " ( Ex. 24: 4)
"So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this Law in a book, when they were finished that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, saying: ' Take this book of the Law, and put it inside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you.' " ( Deut. 31: 24-26)

According to Jewish tradition, either Joshua or Ezra inserted, at the end of Deuteronomy, the account of Moses death.

The book of Joshua bears his name because it was written by himself. He continued where Moses' portion ended in the Book of the Law:

"Then Joshua wrote these words in the Book of the Law of God. And he took a large stone, and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord." ( Josh. 24:26)



Moses wrote the Torah



Keep trying marg.......keep trying.

Are you ever going to explain how your two post contradict each other?

First you claim EVERYTHING must have a beginning then you turn around and say God doesn't.

Which is true?

Originally posted by Amuk
Are you ever going to explain how your two post contradict each other?

First you claim EVERYTHING must have a beginning then you turn around and say God doesn't.

Which is true?

Because God is not bound by the Physics that you and I are.......He is after all the Creator right?

Let me show you something,

Gen 14:18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High,

Psa 110:4 The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."


Melchizedek first appeared in the Bible's Old Testament bringing bread and wine to Abraham after his victory in Genesis 14 over the four kings who had besieged Sodom and Gomorrah and taken his nephew Lot prisoner. In turn, Abraham gave Melchizedek as priest a tithe of ten percent of the bounty that he took in battle.

Psalm 110:4 names Melchizedek as representative of the priestly line through which a future king of Israel's Davidic line was ordained.

The future king - in Christian belief, Jesus Christ - is referred to as a "priest forever after the order of Melchizedek".

Hebrews 7:3 in the New Testament refers to Melchizedek as a king "without father or mother or genealogy", a reference which some Christians take as referring to Melchizedek's true nature as an angel or even as Jesus himself, appearing thousands of years before his Earthly incarnation.


Melchizedek



Heb 6:19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
Heb 6:20 where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 7:1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,
Heb 7:2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace."
Heb 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.


No Beginning.......again.

Originally posted by edsinger

Because God is not bound by the Physics that you and I are.......He is after all the Creator right?

If I understand the idea of the singularity it was not bound by physics either. Everything started with it. Before it there were neither time or space.

Why is that impossible but God is not.

Try explaining without saying because the Bible says so.

My father used to tell me as a child that the word of God and the bible was never to be question, when I asked why? he would make me memorized, parts of the bible, ( actually he did not mean any harm) so I became very good at it, but at the same time I became very good at questioning how does people think that a book of stories is the real thing and the word of God.

Now I question anything and one thing is for sure, the bible old testament, is nothing more and nothing else that the historical accounts of the Israeli roots base on borough myth and lore of other civilizations, that existed before them and that they as a "nation with not roots" adopted into their own.

And that makes the new testament as unbelievable as the old one also.

Originally posted by jfdarby
There are Two Books in the Bible that was inspaired by (GOD// Jesus)

The second Book was Revelation. In Revelation, Jesus gave the last book of the Bible to John and it is a book telling us what to look for at the comming of this Time.
Now if you can not get a hold on the Bible and what it says, this is the book for You..

I did, and this is the conclusion. Re-read your bible and investigate all the references I give you.

Chapters 1,2,3 ,4 5 & 7 are relative to the churches at the end of the 1st century and their fights, it is fluff. Refer All Epistles and Church father writings. The church father writings also answer the "who is Theophilus" question posed earlier, he was a follower written about by Ignateus.

Chapter 6: The first 6 angels reflect the making of mankind, the Hebrew patriarchs and their travails. Refer Enoch’s story about the bulls for clarity.

Chapter 12: Birth of Israel & Egypt the Red Dragon is the 1st beast. refer Enoch.

Chapter 13: Egypt/Idolotry passes its power to Rome the great conqueror, Epihanes the 2nd beast. Refer Enoch.

Chapters.8 & 16: Are both the same with extra details in 16: Catastrophes against Rome. 7th seal with 7 plagues The fire ----Vesuvius. Refer Pliny the younger for clarity.

Chapter 9 details the insurgency and battle with Rome within Israel at the time of Titus. Refer Josephus for clarity.

Chapter 10 is fluff, John has no clue what the future brings because he has no idea about the end of that era circa the sacking of Jerusalem, and the calamities to hit Roman jurisdictions. This is probably an elision by church fathers as it did not come true.

Chapter 17 is more fluff.

Chapters 18 &19 is the wishful thinking of the author that after Rome sacked Jerusalem, Jesus extracted revenge by the fires. It never came to pass.

Chapters 20 & 21 revisits Jesus’ so called resurrection after crucifixion, and what the author presumed happened after he ascended. Refer the apocalypse of Peter, and especially Enoch for details.


Just to be sure you understand, the four beasts referenced in chapters 5 & 6 are not what you think, they are the 4 archangels surrounding God's throne. Refer Enoch.

The thousand years is long up, a safe period I am sure for a disciple who was given the impression his saviour would return before they all died, so that he may make his haha prediction. That was after all, the "lifetime" intended by God for any man to live. Crack genesis chapter 6, and you understand that. So, it was a failed prophecy. Revelation will never happen. It was expected to happen before the disciples died.

The only people who do not understand this are those who prefer the euphoria of an apocalyptic event, wish it to be, just want to perpetuate the myth, or have taken no time to dissect all that is available to us.





[edit on 2/20/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by JehosephatYet we find no origins for the Egyption myth (hence why it is called a myth)

Yes and no. you find no proof of origin for Egyptian myth because we know it is myth, only proof of the myth, and you also find no origin for genesis or exodus, nor proof of the myths behind them because it is based on....


Egyptian myth.

Odd how that works isn't it?

God=Aten. Prove otherwise.

Originally posted by edsingerMelchizedek first appeared in the Bible's Old Testament bringing bread and wine to Abraham after his victory in Genesis 14 over the four kings who had besieged Sodom and Gomorrah and taken his nephew Lot prisoner. remains a priest forever.

Glad you raise this point. the fight was against the kings attacking the kings of soddom and Gomorrah along with two other unknown kingdoms arising in Lot's land, correct?

I take you back to Genesis 13 where Abe and Lot have decided that the vast land they look over has to be divided between them because it was not able "to bear them", for some reason dividing the land makes it more bearable. Nonetheless, Lot chooses his land, and it is from the impression in verses 6 through 11, fertile and uninhabited land. So Lot then walks into this plain settles and wouldn't you know? His only lot (no pun intended) in life is to sit outside at the gate welcoming strangers, while out of nowhere arose Bera and Birsha as kings of Sodom and Gomorrah respectively.

Now here they are fighting it out in what is called "slimepits" 14:10, where back in 13:10 lot was absolutely flabbergasted as to the plains being "well watered."

Now how insipid must we be to accept this story? It was Lot's fertile land supposedly, and others rule it as a slimepit?

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by edsinger

Because God is not bound by the Physics that you and I are.......He is after all the Creator right?

If I understand the idea of the singularity it was not bound by physics either. Everything started with it. Before it there were neither time or space.

Why is that impossible but God is not.

Try explaining without saying because the Bible says so.

Ok an all powerful 'creator' creates the universe yet limits the power 'He' can yield within His creation?

God always was, is, and always will be....................

Humans are not meant to understand that, heck we barely understand creation let alone how it was done.......

Originally posted by marg6043
Now I question anything and one thing is for sure, the bible old testament, is nothing more and nothing else that the historical accounts of the Israeli roots base on borough myth and lore of other civilizations, that existed before them and that they as a "nation with not roots" adopted into their own.

And that makes the new testament as unbelievable as the old one also.

And again I disagree, the old testament is full of the coming Savior, the new Testament is a fulfillment of the Old in some respects, of course there is history in there, past-present-and future.

marg can you explain then with the Atheist reasoning just how the name Jeshua is encoded in Isaiah 53 at the exact spot and even the encoded part tells of what He will do? He died for our sins as was predicted long before the Virgin birth.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Now here they are fighting it out in what is called "slimepits" 14:10, where back in 13:10 lot was absolutely flabbergasted as to the plains being "well watered."

Now how insipid must we be to accept this story? It was Lot's fertile land supposedly, and others rule it as a slimepit?

You are so right is not funny, is so much inconsistencies is not funny but taking in consideration that the bible has so many sources that could not get together to put their stories together.

Genesis 14:19 tells of th eslime pits, but them before that it tells how lovely the region was supoused to be.

The bible even give references to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were located, "some where in the south of the death sea in a region called the vali of siddim acording to genesis is the salt sea" No body takes in cosideration that the death sea is millions of years old.