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posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 09:11 AM
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Wages increases are a like gasoline prices quick to go down due to negative market influences slow to rise again once those influences turn positive again. Once employers see your willing to settle for less they are going to ride that train as long as they can.

Sure the economy and the job market is doing better in recent months but that's not long enough to make employers change course... they are going to hold out as long as they can.

Couple this with the fact that real wealth has been eroded to the point that its difficult for many families to move to where the good paying jobs are. I do alright for my self; but I did make the mistake of buying my home before the market crash. This making it more difficult to move now than it otherwise should be, I don't have the neccery equity in my house to sell and than buy another one. In the last few months I've seen a sharp increase in head hunters trying to recruit me and it seems like they are getting even more desperate. But because of my housing situation it would be more difficult for me to move than the benefit I would get from moving. In another time however I'd be foolish not to move where the better jobs are.




posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 09:21 AM
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originally posted by: Whoisjohngalt
"Family" looks out for you. Strangers dont. You take care of the people that will take care of you.


So Quid Pro Quo is how your ideal world should run?



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 09:32 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
I have theories on this as well....but it mostly falls back on colleges not providing adequate job forecasting to present as information to students.


My experience is that colleges did provide this information. The issue has really been the cost of obtaining the necessary education. The ones who failed were the ones who convinced some people that all they needed for manufacturing is the ability to work a press, or a screwdriver, or whatever and assemble their piece on the line.

That is not at all what we look for. I'm pretty limited in what I can say about our companies products internally so I'll use an analogy. If we were manufacturing custom computers we're looking for people who install a CPU on a motherboard that are capable of engineering their own cutting edge CPU. The companies belief is that our best products are only viable when people who understand how the product works are hands on with it in every step of the process.



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 09:34 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Whoisjohngalt
"Family" looks out for you. Strangers dont. You take care of the people that will take care of you.


So Quid Pro Quo is how your ideal world should run?


Scratch a Libertarian and you will find a Tribalist.



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 09:35 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: cenpuppie

That isn't what I am seeing. There is a strip mall near us that has only had three stores in it forever: Target, Kohl's, Babies R' Us. The Babies R' Us is going out just like Toys R' Us, but in the past 4 or 5 months there is sudden activity in the empty units. They're bringing in two new stores where there has only been a seasonal Halloween store before.

Other areas near us are similarly getting revitalized with new fronts, new stores, less empty space.


As far as job quantity goes we're at record levels. We've had full employment for years now, and are even setting records on that front. Job quality never returned or even began a recovery, but if someone doesn't think the economy is looking good now... they're going to be in a really bad spot when the next crash happens in a couple years.



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 09:43 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan

My observation is that universities are turning out record numbers of liberal arts degrees, which implies they may be more interested in money than successful graduates.



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 09:58 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

There's nothing wrong with liberal arts degrees. They aren't professional certifications but they do teach people to ask the right questions. My opinion is that everyone should dual or triple major. Universities are not a good system for professional development, but they're what we have so getting some professional skills from them is a must. Those skills alone won't get you a job though because in most majors a Bachelors degree is really only a survey of various topics.

Most classes cover a single loosely tied together subject with 1 or maybe 2 weeks devoted to each specialization within that subject. That translates to a 2-4 hour summary of any given topic. In the real world, your job is only going to draw on a handful of those lectures which means that a Bachelors degree is really only worth 20-40 hours of lecture time to an employer (and much of that, the student may not remember).

This is why a Bachelors is insufficient, in order to actually contribute one needs a good grasp of a specialization and that's just not what those degrees are capable of providing.

Liberal arts tends to be more about a thought process to uncover the questions you need to answered and that is quite useful because it at least gives someone a basis to begin researching from. It's an important supplement to learning.

Here's the statistics on degrees awarded by subject/year
nces.ed.gov...

Liberal arts are on the decline.



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:01 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Aazadan

My observation is that universities are turning out record numbers of liberal arts degrees, which implies they may be more interested in money than successful graduates.


Wouldn't it be awesome if the tuition was payed after graduation? Say a small percentage of wages over the next 2-5 years that would reimburse the institution for their spent resources. I bet things would change overnight if their payment plan was directly tied to how well they educated a person and the practicality of the education applied in the real world.



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan

Do you honestly think our higher institutions of learning teach critical thought? My experience is they are simply a continuation of previous state run education centers. Rote memorization and regurgitation. Colleges and universities have so much stupid filler material. That filler appears to be there simply to line their pockets. I can't imagine the debt load that would come from requiring 2 or 3 of these worthless degrees. I love meeting people with masters or doctorates. After conversing with them for a little while, I feel really good about myself.

Maybe things should start trending towards the vo tech and 2 year specialized schools out there. They actually teach the important stuff without the brainwashing mind-numbing filler material. Maybe teachers shouldn't just be those who simply graduate, but come from the fields of their profession they are teaching, with a rich work history. Our entire educational system is a farce.



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:17 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

Many coding bootcamps are using this approach and all it's doing is leading to higher prices for education. In terms of material covered, a coding bootcamp is worth approximately 1 semester worth of study and depending on the school they charge between $25,000 and $80,000 for this (which is the price of a typical 4 year university education).



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:25 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
Do you honestly think our higher institutions of learning teach critical thought?


They do a better job of it than most other places.



Maybe things should start trending towards the vo tech and 2 year specialized schools out there. They actually teach the important stuff without the brainwashing mind-numbing filler material. Maybe teachers shouldn't just be those who simply graduate, but come from the fields of their profession they are teaching, with a rich work history. Our entire educational system is a farce.


See my above comment about coding bootcamps. They've become very popular lately, because software engineering has such a high average salary with a relatively low barrier to entry. Coding bootcamps are the vo tech of Computer Science. They move people into a handful of local jobs, provide people with the tools to do those entry level jobs (at the price of a full university education), and do it at an accelerated pace of 12-15 weeks. The problem, is that they're selling the idea that someone can get into a job that takes 10 years experience to be any good at, in 12 weeks.

The data is still coming in as boot camps are new, but the results so far are that people who complete these programs have severely hindered career mobility (60% of bootcamp graduates see no promotion/title bumps after 3 years of employment), drastically reduced salary growth (they're paid roughly 1/3 of what someone with a proper education makes), and little upward mobility (most find extreme difficulty in moving to another company, once they want to leave the one their bootcamp placed them at).

Again, the typical 2 year vo tech institution is just setting people up to fail. If it only takes 2 years to learn something, that something is on the verge of being automated away. It is not viable as a long term career.
edit on 10-6-2018 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:33 AM
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originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: Whoisjohngalt

Workers not having solidarity is why we have no time to spend with our families. But you know what everyone, you all do you, sacrifice the future of your children and everyone else for minor gain. When your children have to work 12 hours a day, seven days a week for a minimum of three years to hopefully get a 3 cent raise I'm sure they'll thank you all.


So if a stranger asked to sleep on your couch for a week youd say yes?



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:43 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

In order to do that, we'd have to accept a return to more apprenticeship style system.

That would mean corporations and businesses would come into high schools looking for recruits and they would pick the ones they want and agree to put them through the school and degree program of the sponsor's choosing in return for a certain number of years of service on the flip side.

It would kind of be like ROTC or like the contracts we sign as student athletes.

Given the number of folks who think that all businesses are only evil slave driving rapists now ... I don't see that happening anytime soon. Do you?
edit on 10-6-2018 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:44 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan

Very interesting and thought provoking.

Is coding an outlier? I had went through college for comp sci and had many coding classes. It didn't seem very helpful at all. I got a job as an assistant programmer and basically had to relearn the entire approach. I picked up a foxpro book (dating myself) and then read through visual foxpro when GUI was starting to become more popular. From doing on the job work and taking personal responsibility for my own education, I learned 4 times as much in 6 months compared to years at school. Then I think of all those worthless filler classes that were required to receive the degree and die a little bit inside. I wish I would have a coding bootcamp back then.

So if it takes 10 years of on the job experience to become proficient, why wouldn't you want to get school out of the way as quick as possible so your real learning can finally begin, on the job?

2 year vo techs for my industry is about the only thing out there. What about welding or electricians? 2 year vo techs are perfect for them as well. I guess to become a better electrician, you need to get some humanities under your belt?

What would you say about making the company itself responsible for training? Maybe that type of education with a contract for a specific amount of years worked (with raises every step of the way of course)



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:45 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

My observation is that universities are turning out record numbers of liberal arts degrees, which implies they may be more interested in money than successful graduates.


Pure for profit industry. Colleges sell their 50k degrees and tell these kids there is a 100k job just waiting for them. The kids take their crap degrees into the world and realize there is no profession associated with their degree and so they end up in a job that is a little higher than HS level. This is why we get the 99%ers and other groups of totally disgruntled kids in debt and no way to pay it off. But hey, colleges don't care...



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:48 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky

2 year vo techs for my industry is about the only thing out there. What about welding or electricians? 2 year vo techs are perfect for them as well. I guess to become a better electrician, you need to get some humanities under your belt?


When a plumber charges 200 per hour, can't say that is bad money...lol



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:48 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

That's not a good deal for the company. Why should the company assume the risks and costs of training potential employees that will take those skills elsewhere in the future? If the potential employee wants the job, shouldn't they take the responsibility and bear the cost for learning how to perform it?



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:50 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

There is no doubt that most degrees come with an embarrassing amount of filler which is mostly there to justify the employment of university staff.

Imagine how much cheaper it would be if most of the filler requirements were dropped and you could head straight into your degree work? Further imagine if you took the same number of hours for your degree but it was all degree work, meaning that you might be able to pack both Bachelor and Master level coursework into one degree program?

How much more useful would college be with either one of those two options? And from my husband's perspective, you really don't need the in-depth research level work of a Ph.D. to do most of the jobs where he works. You only need Master's or equivalent.



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:50 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Ha, you beat me to the punch. Awesome!!

I do like to rail on the companies and their politics. But I think if a person were true to themselves and didn't sell their soul, on the job training should be exactly what will lead us forth. Maybe then highschool will actually mean something again and evolve to actually teaching students instead of brainwashing them. They would have pride in their curriculum evidenced by the companies that came in search of talent. I have no idea on how to start that movement, but I think it would do the us and future generations a world of good. Sometimes an evil company provides an excellent opportunity to better oneself, as long as the end product isn't fraudulent.

(completely off subject...I have been wondering ... I picture you as a sprinter 100m & 200m with maybe a dabble of 400m and some hurdles thrown in? You don't seem insane enough to be a 800 or 1600 person)



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 11:52 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: ketsuko

That's not a good deal for the company. Why should the company assume the risks and costs of training potential employees that will take those skills elsewhere in the future? If the potential employee wants the job, shouldn't they take the responsibility and bear the cost for learning how to perform it?


That's where the years of service on the flip side come in. Most employees aren't giving most companies loyalty and service these days anyhow. This would at least legally lock employees in for a guaranteed period of time.



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