WATCH: Two Transgenders Blow Out Girls In State Meet

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

So... We can do away with weight classes in combat sports then?

Does that make sense to do?

Me, sitting at 300lbs and having a championship power lifting history behind me as well as a decade of martial arts training vs Ryan Seacrest....does it make sense to remove weight classes?

Im 210, but ive had almost 16 years of not only Martial Arts training (Win Chun, Muai Thai, and Juinjutsu), and military (Marine, never served. Unc served in vietnam. Put me through the same training he went through) grade combat training.

Care to spar? Id love to see who comes out on top. Havent soarred with anyone over 250 yet. May have to take a (friendly) vacation back to Texas.

My point being: Its different in a fight. There are so many variables to consider outside of weight class.

For an example: my niece (uncs daughter) is trained WAY better than me. Despite being smaller, and weighing less, ive never once been able to even come close to defeating her.

a reply to: jjsr420

There are. But strength and size is an advantage that arent easy to overcome.

There are a couple of points to this that I’m not sure have been considered.

The two athletes involved are male and identify as female. However they are unable to transition or receive the treatment for some time. No hormone suppressants are taken. So you do effectively have men competing against women and at the elite levels there is a difference in power/speed.

My question is that if these athletes competed as men previously - how did they do? Were they winning? Or finishing mid-field?

What’s to stop them doing this just to get a fully paid athletic scholarship as a female? What about the person who should have won the scholarship? Should there be separate trans scholarships?

More importantly - should they be forced to ‘tuck’. Might slow them down.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft

Daily Wire

On Monday, when Connecticut had its State Open track and field championships at Willow Brook Park, one person broke the State Open records for girls in both the 100 and 200-meter runs.

That person was a biological boy.

Terry Miller of Bulkeley, a transgender, won the events. In the 100 meter dash, the runner-up was Andraya Yearwood of Cromwell, also a transgender.

I agree with Janice Turners tweet above - 100%. I don't think its fair for the girls having to compete with boys in a girls race. Now, you can go online to any number of sites to see what folks are saying about this situation.

Thoughts and criticisms are most welcome..........

It seems that this is going to be the problem with the gender fluidity movement. Many track and fields sports have always been based on the idea that those competing were of the same physiological makeup.

Arguments of what defines a persons gender have no place in a physical competition to determine who has developed their skills to the greatest degree of prowess amongst each respected sex.

If this type of competition is to continue, then it is an unfortunate fact that competitions will have to structure themselves to include brackets for pre-op transgender male and female athletes to compete with each other to enforce equal competition.

Its another moment that redefines how we view the world, but its also a matter of fair play and the love of the sports overall. No one should be kept from competing by any means, but competing in a female bracket without having gone through a sex change or hormone therapy creates an unfair physical gap between the competitors that a gender excuse doesn't make up for.

-Shadow

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I wasn't offering a comprehensive list of physical characteristics, merely suggesting that as an answer to the fairly obvious PHYSICAL inequities pointed to in the OP we devise a more fair system of competitive categories.

I know. Im stating that there isn't one. That men and women evolved over thousands and tens of thousands of years to be, phsycially, what we are today. Humans recent notions of gender fluidity may make sense when talking psychologically...but physically there is just not path around it.

The only way to keep physical competition fair, barring any reasonable suggestions, is to divide by gender, then by weight class.

If by gender you refer to XX or XY, I am with you 100%.

During the pre screens for the Olympic's i recall they used to check your DNA and ran testosterone steroid tests. This must have ended, since you must take them to become another sex.

It started with "Rene Richards". The first Tennis pro transgender woman to play against the XX with XY genes.

Rene was Dr Richard Raskin who had a 'sex' change and they let him play in the women's division at the grand slams.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

“People describe Renée as a reluctant pioneer,” said Coffey, “but I believe that as time went on she realised how much her case mattered.

“By suing the USTA, she established a precedent that has been used to fight discrimination ever since. No one is more important in the movement for acceptance.”

ETA

Where will it end?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
After reading the article, a young lady named Bridget Lalonde twitter.com... ers-blow-out-girls-state-meet-hank-berrien
won the actual title of fastest female runner in that 100 M. She should hold her head high for her accomplishment of beating all the other females she competed against. Hopefully someone awarded her a title and I can only assume she will go on to perform great feats in her life.

I do wonder where the feminists are on all of this. There was once a time when males beating down females in what's supposed to be a girls only event would have caused an uproar from their movement. Now we hear scarcely a stir... think their order givers aren't connected deeply to the agenda pushers?

I had you of all people aligned with us who say NO to participation trophy's? Ok so in this case, I agree with your theme 100%. Women who run deserve that much when they are racing in a heat or final with men in it.

Typically there is certain members of ATS that rush in to protect there transgender sisters/buddies......it's been crickets from that group on this thread. So I have to wonder if they think this is finally "a bridge to far" for them.

I'm very saddened that this discussion turned out merely to be another "here's why I don't accept transgenders or differing gender identities" bash sesh.

I heard the same arguments against civil rights for gays and Lesbians (and the same expressions of hatred) in the 80s and 90s (and still to some extent today.)

The same arguments were used against civil rights for Blacks in the 60s and 70s, etc..

The same arguments were used against equal rights for women in the 20s and 30s (and 40s, 50s, etc. etc. through today).

The same arguments were used against the Irish, the Italians and the Chinese in the 1890s ... SSDD.

Catholics, Jews, heck even Baptists in early New England ...

"These people are dangerous! It's unfair! What's next? Why should we change everything for a few people? Why can't they just get along? They're just agitators (whiners, complainers, troublemakers ...) It's against God's will. Blahdablahdablah."

Here's the thing. I'm sure we have more to learn about integrating differing gender identities into our society. I'm sure we've made mistakes on both sides, and will make more. I think the special case of athletic competition in the early stages of transition needs more thought. I think there's room to think outside of the box, and maybe, even come up with better ways to make amateur sports more competitive and fair FOR ALL.

Those who wish only to be hateful, however, and attempt to discredit other human beings, other Americans just because you don't like their way of being in the world?

Your way of looking at things is also subject to evolutionary forces.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
Typically there is certain members of ATS that rush in to protect there transgender sisters/buddies......it's been crickets from that group on this thread. So I have to wonder if they think this is finally "a bridge to far" for them.

Just as there are certain members of ATS that always rush in to attack transgender folks?

Yeah, funny how the world works, isn't it? People on a discussion board have different ideas.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

They have to choose to be who they are or to compete in sports?

Yeah, sounds fair. Nah, just exclude trans kids. It'd be easier on them.

For serious competition, yes.

If they want to play in the rec league or on co-ed teams, then there isn't any issue, but that's not serious competition. It's for fun and exercise.

Right, as I said, your solution is to exclude trans kids.

Got it.

Is your's to include them in the division as the sex they think they are or not?

Should BFFT be allowed to play a female sport in the Olympics if he says the right things in a formal way?

Sounds like you're saying If he can make the women's squad in martial arts or whatever by formally announcing before tryouts something like: "BFFT is a woman now"!, he is allowed in as a woman. He might have to cut something off to officially make it? IDK

a reply to: Justoneman

First of all, it has been shown in these threads before, and I have shown here that gender identity isn't simply a matter of "what someone thinks they are."

If you're reading through the thread, you will find links provided to standards set by the IOC, NCAA and other administrative organizations for sport in which they specify what how and when TG folks can compete which for the most part is based on testosterone levels.

You'll also find links to hard science from studies and from professional associations that demosntrate that gender identity isn't just "in their heads."

Usually, when someone makes some variation of "so what you're saying is" there's about to be a strawman argument made.

I've been clear about my position. I think there are some questions to be answered and some issues to be resolved. I suggested looking at competition in terms of ranges of physical capabilities and attributes, and was told that, no, the only fair divisions were already in place as biological sex.

I am only saying what I've said. Individual situations (like the point-of-departure in this OP) need to be considered individually.

However, in general like sexual orientation, race, sex, religion, disability status, national origin, etc ... classes of Americans that are regularly discriminated against need protections to insure due process and equality before the law.

I could wish humans weren't this way, but we are. One of the only valid purposes of government is to ensure equal civil rights.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
Typically there is certain members of ATS that rush in to protect there transgender sisters/buddies......it's been crickets from that group on this thread. So I have to wonder if they think this is finally "a bridge to far" for them.

Yep, been wondering where kaylaluv is .....

Interesting, how the feelings of all the biological females in that race mean nothing.

originally posted by: poncho1982

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
Typically there is certain members of ATS that rush in to protect there transgender sisters/buddies......it's been crickets from that group on this thread. So I have to wonder if they think this is finally "a bridge to far" for them.

Yep, been wondering where kaylaluv is .....

Interesting, how the feelings of all the biological females in that race mean nothing.

Have you seen anyone argue that the feelings of the other girls in the race mean nothing? I haven't.

As a matter of fact, I linked the comments of two of the girls. One feels that the TG kids should be able to compete, one feels that it's unfair.

Why come into the discussion and make false assumptions?

a reply to: Gryphon66

By the mere inclusion of biological males in a race for females, they have said the feelings of the other racers mean nothing.

I made no assumptions. I made an obvious observation. too bad if it didn't fit your narrative.

originally posted by: poncho1982
a reply to: Gryphon66

By the mere inclusion of biological males in a race for females, they have said the feelings of the other racers mean nothing.

I made no assumptions. I made an obvious observation. too bad if it didn't fit your narrative.

Actually, they're following Connecticut law ... as well as the guidelines of their high school sports authorities.

No, no one here or there has said that the feelings of the other racers mean nothing. That is merely your declaration.

My narrative is based on hard science and professional medical and psychiatric opinions.

What's yours based on?

By the way, for those who seem to think that all trans folks have gender dysphoria ...

Not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Gender dysphoria and/or coming out as transgender can occur at any age. The DSM-5* distinguishes between Gender Dysphoria in Childhood for those who experience GD before puberty. The diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria in Adolescents and Adults can occur at any age. For those who experience gender dysphoria later in life, they often report having secretly hidden their gender dysphoric feelings from others when they were younger.

Expert Q&A - American Psychiatric Association

Sports rest on a foundation of fairness and competition amongst equals. We go pretty far to assure that the playing field are as level as possible, and the acception of 'm2f' athletes as 'f' athletes flies in the face of that.

We group athletes into ranked leagues to ensure a relatively level playing field.
We group athletes into weight classes to ensure a relatively level playing field.
We group athletes into age categories to ensure a relatively level playing field.

And then to ensure level playing fields we group athletes by gender to level out physical potential.

If you don't abide by this; if you don't believe in a level playing field and the ability to compete against your equals, you don't belong in organised sport. Neither as a competitor nor as an organizer.

This is not about gender - or any other - politics, it is simply about the foundation on which sports rest.

a reply to: DupontDeux

I agree with the position that competitive divisions in sport should be based on similar ranges of physical attributes and abilities.

However, the exclusion of a trans student from competition is not fair either, and, the laws of Connecticut (the location of the race in the OP) are clear on the matter as are the high-school regulations.

I think many folks are open to the most fair method that insures that all students get to compete.

The arbitrary comments that "girls and boys" divisioning is the only way are ill-informed.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
However, the exclusion of a trans student from competition is not fair...

Are you still going on about this? Trans students can still compete. Just in the category that they were born into.

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: Gryphon66
However, the exclusion of a trans student from competition is not fair...

Are you still going on about this? Trans students can still compete. Just in the category that they were born into.

Still going on about it? Well, that's one way to phrase it.

Yeah, I'm still participating in the discussion ... is there an issue you have with that?

The "category they were born into" is not the only factor. Legally speaking, medically, psychologically and factually.

So, I guess its safe to say I still disagree with your position on the matter.