Feminism and women who can't do jobs men do but get paid the same

This has been an issue for longer than many people think and the people who suffer from this are men. A quick example I'll use is a job at a tree nursery. Every day trees have to be dug up, moved around, watered and loaded into trucks. It had been all men in the department until someone wanted to be out there because the register was always slow and they could talk on the phone, text etc in between customers. Over an 8 hour day the guys would work 1-2 hours at the register as a break or often they would just come when a bell was rung and they would stay in the yard working with the guys. When a guy got hurt or sick they would get the register until they were better. When the "special person" came in, everything changed.

Instead of one person moving a 200-275lb tree, 2 people were needed and it was actually harder because one person wouldn't even be able to lift their 1/2 so the weight was out of balance and it made the weight equivelent to 400+ lbs for one person (b/c it was extended 2-3ft out from the body) and the special person was lifting 30-50lbs. Well this made it about 4x slower or more, so that was done away with and only the "old employees" (guys) were left doing that.

Then there was digging holes and the average was about 6-20 an hour depending on size. Well the special person was doing 0-3 an hour and couldn't plant after digging, so everything got backed up.

Obviously the solution should be to buy a $35,000 digger that can fit in between the trees and a $15-20,000 lift for trees to move them around, plant them and load them, right? Why are we so limited with having a $30 shovel and a $20 set of hay bail hooks? That is discrimination and sexist, oh, and not fair.

So since the nursery is IN BUSINESS and not the standing around waiting business, the "special person" ended up sitting at the register the whole shift (except for the 4-10 bathroom breaks to go talk to friends in the rest of the store - leaving the bell for the guys to cover). Now when someone gets hurt they don't work (and no workmans comp unless you loose a hand or arm or something), get sick, your still heeling in 275lb trees in the rain. But hey, it make your stronger right?

So now there is some diversity in the department and we can all say "a woman can do any job that a man does" (often added to this line "sometimes even better").

I guess we have all seen the road crews or utility workers and we all see who is doing what. Who usually has the shovel, pick axe, digging iron, jack hammer, pneumatic tamper, etc? Who is holding the road sign's?

I'm for equality when there is equal work done and not relativistic work. Now there is a difference when looking at a site with an 18yr old and a 55-65 year old and expecting the same. What one may lack in experience they may make up for with a youthful body, endurance and exhuberance. The experience may keep the youngin from hurting themselves or show them something that saves a lot of time, but the difference is that they are capable of equal work. This is how things have been in hard labor jobs since most everyone can remember and only recently has the world gone insane thiking that b/c someone weighs 90 lbs compared to a 220lb worker, they should only have to carry 40% of a tree or 40% of a rock - which is impossible so they end up not doing it.

I can list about 30-40 other jobs like this if anyone really wants to argue against this point, but I'm open to hearing why someone thinks it is equal or fair. These "easy" jobs are necessary for the people on the team and are a built in rest for the workers. When dead weight takes these jobs the rest of the team suffers and people end up getting hurt (could be why so many workers have chronic pain and other repetitive injuries).

This whole idea makes me incredibly mad and I need to stop before I say things I shouldn't.

We need to celebrate and embrace our differences and use them to our best advantage... not to make us or someone else feel good.

That’s about the best I can put it.

I as a man probably couldn’t do that job... ask your employer if what is going on is best for the company and the employees. Though, your special person, may be a relative to someone which would explain a lot.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Some women can do the job.. not all

Hell not all men can either but I see what you're saying.
There is 1 lady that works in the foundry and she is bodied up and pulls her weight.
I'm with you though.

I don't deal with it much cause the nature of my work but id be pissed if I were in that situation. We get dudes all the time that just can't hang or won't and they get run out fast man.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

I'm a woman and I think that we can do most jobs a man can do...but not all of them. We just don't have the same build/muscle strength to perform some of them. It's just the way it is.

Do I like to try to do them? Yep. Do I realize that sometimes I'm not gonna be able to? Yep. Should I be allowed to work in a job if I can't perform the tasks just because they need to fill an HR quota in that position? Nope.

I think if we can do the job it should be open to us..not because we are women, but because we are capable. Personally I would like to be hired because I have the skills...but that is my opinion, others may think differently.

Thanks,
blend

There are jobs men are better at doing, and jobs women are better at doing. The fight for equal pay is a righteous cause for women, where jobs are the same. Forcing employers to take on people who are unsuitable is the road to ruin.

It is standard to hire someone for a job that requires heavy lifting to be physically able to do said lifting. It is common to see requirements like "ability to lift 50lbs repeatedly during a shift" or "bend, reach, squat" and to "stand for 10 hours" etc. In general labor job postings you see these requirements a lot along with things like "must have reliable transportation" or "pass a drug test".

If you don't meet the requirements of the job, then HR should have never made the hire in the first place. If a person can't meet the requirements, then they should have been screened out during the hiring process. If that didn't happen, then there is something going on like pressure from management to hire a friend or relative that isn't qualified for the position.

ETA: In a situation like you describe, it may have to do with some type of affirmative action policy that forces HR to make "diversity" a priority that ends up hiring less than qualified applicants. They may feel they have to accept lower quotas to meet these diversity goals even though it puts the pressure on the qualified workers to take up the slack.

Something similar happened at a business I was working at a few years ago with 7 other guys, there was a mix of heavy manual work and light tasks we would all do throughout the day and every time one guy changed department or left for another job they hired a woman to only do the light tasks.

It ended up with 4 women sat on their ass gassing away all day laughing, joking and chatting away while me and 3 other guys where busting our balls all day struggling to keep up with the work loads and we all still got paid the same, the boss didn't care.

Thankfully I found another job, I don't know how much longer I could take it there.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

I'm open to hearing why someone thinks it is equal or fair.

Fair is a man made concept.
Out in nature,I can't think of any place where it is written that said things had to be fair and life had to be fair.
I think history has proven that people are pretty flawed so our concept of fair might not be as good as it can be.

It is not someone's fault they are 55 yrs old and it is not someone else's fault they were born male or female.
In that aspect,we are all equal in that we don't control certain things,so we should all be on equal footing.

Thats the human aspect in my opinion.

Should we put economic motives above humanitarian motives?

Here is one for you.
If someone was 10 times smarter than you or I....should they get 10 times more money and have 10 more votes than you in elections?
Remember that word....FAIR??

Fair is flawed...we haven't perfected that yet IMO.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof


Is this an hourly wage we're talking about, or a salary? Is your wage comparable to or higher than say a full time cashier at a grocery store or say a bookkeeper at your business? Do you think your wage is based on the heavy labor aspect?
If so, are you sure this person is receiving the same wage as the rest of you because it's assumed she's doing the exact same job, or is it just a standard wage the company offers? What is the standard wage of other employees doing less laborious but equally necessary work in your company?

a reply to: Sookiechacha

No, everyone got paid the same, actually the "cashier" probably got about $1 more per hour b/c she had been at the job like 2 years and all the guys were new, so minimum wage or $.25-.50 cents above. The guys definitely resented the request to move to that department, a couple quit because of it and the changes, and they had been there at least a year. It was very clear what was going on and anyone who doesn't see these things as they are and call it out are just as guilty. It's like those who support Islamic terrorism but don't actually partake in it, same thing but on a different paradigm.

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
So since the nursery is IN BUSINESS...

This is what it boils down to, it's a business, obviously not your business, but whomever it happens to belong to made this decision and if the business owner makes a decision to employ people in certain departments and it's not profitable or sustainable they will soon know. Equally, if there's a mary or three that feel they need to quit because they don't like the business owner's decision they are free to do that.

One last thing, if these are minimum wage jobs and everyone is getting minimum wage, except Miss Special who has been there longer, why exactly would the business owner pay anyone more? Just to make the butt-hurttery a little softer? Suck it up buttercups, life isn't fair.

When two people are paid the same to work in the same department where everyone is SUPPOSED to do everything in the department, there is something wrong when one person can stand at a register and ring up an order of 30-60 bags of mulch, had the loading slip to the person loading and watch them move 60, 50lb bags into a truck while they go back to the register, sit and watch them load the truck while they text on their phone. Even though there are requirements to lift 50 lbs, it seems that this gets glossed over once the person is in the job at times. Some think "why should I lift this 50 lb bag when I have a perfectly good second class, non-protected citizen, over there that is capable of doing it as well". That may not be what people come right out and say, but looking at the way many work places operate, that sure seems to be the way things are.

The thing is that we never hear men complain about not being allowed to do certain jobs or that they don't get hired for them and it isn't because they have "privilege". When I hear a girl complain that a blacksmith addresses the audience of 300+ men (and 1 girl) (and 1000's online watching) as "Hi guys" things are just F'd up when someone feels the need to be singled out and acknowledged as if it was intentionally disrespectful to not use the proper greeting and it was a purposeful slight. When things get like this and people feel the need to walk on egg shells, it's time to start wearing boots around and do some stomping.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
So since the nursery is IN BUSINESS...

This is what it boils down to, it's a business, obviously not your business, but whomever it happens to belong to made this decision and if the business owner makes a decision to employ people in certain departments and it's not profitable or sustainable they will soon know. Equally, if there's a mary or three that feel they need to quit because they don't like the business owner's decision they are free to do that.

Well that is part of the problem. In a small business this would never happen, but in large businesses the people who CAN do the work end up getting $hit on by management and the freeloaders. Due to the numbers of employees, the freeloaders don't make a huge dent in productivity but it has a direct impact on the workers who actually work and these employees basically have no voice. These people end up not lasting long in jobs b/c they are worked to death b/c another is not working or pulling their weight. If they complain they get labeled a problem maker. This directly effects their health and is an assault on able bodied males.

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
The thing is that we never hear men complain about not being allowed to do certain jobs...

You're complaining right now Broheim...

The guys definitely resented the request to move to that department, a couple quit...

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
Well that is part of the problem. In a small business this would never happen, but in large businesses the people who CAN do the work end up getting $hit on by management and the freeloaders.

Oh, well. Start your own business, then you can employ all the macho, man bun-wearing, neck hair-sporting studwads you want.

This is why I laugh on the very very rare occasion I see a woman on a job site

Its not that I care about her being a woman but ill be damned if she can output the same production as a man, shes just not strong enough

Also the working conditions are garbage but thats a different story

I actually did a commercial tile job with a female union tile setter and she sets quality work but she cant do the heavy lifting we do

If a business that delivers mulch was buying a work truck and one could only hold 5 bags of mulch and go 30 miles an hour or they could buy a different truck that could carry 40-60 bags of mulch and travel 50-60 miles an hour (and both trucks had same operating costs and price was the same, same basic size), which do you think the owner would buy? That is a pretty simple question to answer and no one would every take a second glance at the owner for buying the more capable truck.

The problem comes in when the owner is basically forced or manipulated in buying the first truck (probably in addition to the other truck(s) b/c they'd go out of business with the first truck) and then when an order of 10 bags comes in the driver of the first truck says they can't do it while the other truck driver has to deliver maybe 600+ bags over the day. The small truck driver will only do loads that are 5 bags or less even though they could make 2 trips to get the job done, but it would be faster for the other truck to do it.

I'm not saying that women aren't capable of doing jobs that men do and there are some jobs that some men can't do or do well, maybe because of age, injury, etc. The thing is that most men know this and would not try to work that job in the first place. Looking back through history how many jobs do you think men could say "I'm not able to do that" and the employer would just say "oh, ok, no problem, just have a seat until we find something for you to do". Unless it was something ridiculous like lifting a 500+lb boulder by themselves, it seems that men never have the "I can't do it" to fall back on and women do. I've seen that happen too many times, it's like their saftey net and too many have NO SHAME in using it and that is what makes it sick.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
The thing is that we never hear men complain about not being allowed to do certain jobs...

You're complaining right now Broheim...

The guys definitely resented the request to move to that department, a couple quit...

If you are really that dumb they you are most definitely part of the problem. Bro... (no icon for middle finger) There is a difference in complaining at the job to co-workers or managers and discussing the issue in a forum specifically designed for discussion. One is "complaining" (rightfully so to correct idiocy) and and the other is trying to enlighten, find others points of view, etc. Also, this isn't in the rant section, which is usually where rants are located. This is an issue that I've seen in most businesses that COULD have the problem, which is why it is a societal/"political" issue.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

There's nothing wrong with discussing ideas here just ignore people thats what I do

originally posted by: toysforadults
This is why I laugh on the very very rare occasion I see a woman on a job site

Its not that I care about her being a woman but ill be damned if she can output the same production as a man, shes just not strong enough

Also the working conditions are garbage but thats a different story

I actually did a commercial tile job with a female union tile setter and she sets quality work but she cant do the heavy lifting we do

Well I'll believe in "equality" when there are equal numbers of women doing things like roofing, concrete work, smithing, etc and maintaining the same output (and not with fancy $20,000 lifts or automated equipment). There just mysteriously seems to be a lack of applications for the hard manual labor jobs from a certain group.

As someone said before, this isn't even about equality, it's really about differences and that some refuse to accept and or embrace this. I don't know many men who would complain that they aren't being hired for traditional male jobs, but because there are very manually taxing jobs which pay proportional to their WORK (hard work often pays higher rates), these are the jobs which some people feel they are entitled to "equality" in but not when it comes to output, only in body space.