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When Guns Are Sold Illegally, A.T.F. Is Lenient on Punishment.

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posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:26 AM
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This is a story I came across posted in the New York Times a couple of days ago and found it an interesting read.



WASHINGTON — As they inspect the nation’s gun stores, federal investigators regularly find violations of the law, ranging from minor record-keeping errors to illegal sales of firearms.


I don't usually post in political threads that are to do with solely Americas politics or policies, but I have tried to discuss firearms a handful of times with people who are willing to listen, and discuss the issues without jumping to "oh liberal this" or "Far-right that" when a mass or school shooting has made the news here in Great Britain, and a thread appears.
Both here in Britian and over in Australia, guns/firearms laws have been altered after a mass shooting occurred in the past, we still have access to firearms, but talk about firearm laws and such here and quite a lot of members turn deaf or get very shouty.

I've said several times and will repeat it here...…
I have never once said that guns should be banned and it's not a point even worth making when so many firearms are in the U.S. public domain.

There maybe now more guns than people.


Three-hundred-and-forty-seven million. That’s the 2012 figure. It represents roughly one gun for every man, woman and child in America

Guns per capita
The truth about guns.

I thought I'd post this before the next school shooting happens, and some members claim that I'm jumping on the bad wagon. So suprise, suprise this isn't about gun ownership or whether guns should be removed, but about the excisting laws, and whether it's time that these laws need/get some attention or tightening and whether the competative nature between the different law enforcement departments makes it easier for people to slip through the cracks.


Please read the story HERE and post what you think?









edit on 5-6-2018 by Kurokage because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:29 AM
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Of about 11,000 inspections of licensed firearm dealers in the year starting in October 2016, more than half were cited for violations. Less than 1 percent of all inspections resulted in the loss of a license.


That is pretty unacceptable.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:37 AM
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It's true. Remember Operation Fast and Furious? No prosecutions, there.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:38 AM
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a reply to: loam


How many of those 11,000 violations are clerical violation vs. intentional violations? Perhaps almost all are minor violations that did not warrant a loss of license.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: Kurokage

Many supporters of the 2nd have said this before, and will repeat it. Enforce the existing laws, and see if that helps. Please try that, before you make new laws, we asked Spock and he said it was "only logical". Who am I to argue with him?



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:43 AM
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a reply to: loam


I found it amazing that so many inspections failed in some way or another.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:46 AM
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a reply to: joemoe

Your point?

The regs are almost entirely 'clerical' in nature. That is the point. Why have the regs at all if they can be ignored and selectively applied?


edit on 5-6-2018 by loam because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:47 AM
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a reply to: network dude

This is what I've said before in previous threads and that the fact guns stores act pretty irresponsibly when it comes to the already existing laws that adding even more laws would make the situation worse.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:47 AM
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originally posted by: joemoe
a reply to: loam


How many of those 11,000 violations are clerical violation vs. intentional violations? Perhaps almost all are minor violations that did not warrant a loss of license.




This is an important question.

I once bought two pistols at once- same make/model, but obviously different serial numbers.
Now, since you can't just go out and buy a pistol without a ton of paperwork/fees, these two $150 pistols cost me nearly $500 to buy- more if you figure the time off from work I had to spend going to the designated place and jumping through the stack of paperwork I had to fill out.

Six months later, I got a letter from them asking to clarify a 6 from a G on some hand-written paperwork.

I never responded, I didn't have the answer (nor the pistols) at that point.

That's a 'violation' on their part, but hardly something they should have their license taken away for. It's not even their fault- technically it's mine... but in my state private transfers are legal, so as far as I'm concerned that paperwork shouldn't exist in the first place.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:51 AM
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a reply to: lordcomac

I'm all for changing or eliminating regs that don't make sense. But in the OP, the examples given were hardly as minimal as your example.



One store was cited for failing to conduct background checks before selling a gun. Another store owner told investigators he actively tried to circumvent gun laws. One threatened an A.T.F. officer, and another sold a gun to a customer who identified as a felon. All were previously cited by the A.T.F. In each instance, supervisors downgraded recommendations that the stores’ licenses be revoked and instead let them stay open.


Give me a break.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: lordcomac


But with different state laws and national laws, and with different departments keeping separate uncollated information doesn't it make it harder to say which company/store is operating illegally so even if it's only clerical surely this should be sorted?



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 11:59 AM
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a reply to: loam


Do you believe that some ATF supervisors are more worried about more paperwork because of license revokes or that there's more behind them downgrading the reports?



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 12:01 PM
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a reply to: Kurokage

Sounds like your OP lays it out clearly: enforce existing laws before going back to the voters for more restrictions.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 12:03 PM
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a reply to: Kurokage

More.

I think it's part of a larger trend in just about every level of government now. LAWS aren't really laws, but 'suggestions' that can be easily weaponized by selective enforcement or prosecution. It's how banana republics work.


edit on 5-6-2018 by loam because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 12:08 PM
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a reply to: Kurokage

I think the media tends to report the exceptions, and folks perceive it to be the norm.

About a month ago I bought a fully assembled AR at a gun show in Bell County Texas. In the process, I had to redo my paperwork 6 times before the vendor would accept it. Small things like having to mark through an error, and the vendor rejected it.

People who value their business don't tend to play loose with the rules.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 12:08 PM
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a reply to: loam

If it is just clerical it's not willfully done.



For gun dealers to lose their licenses, the A.T.F. must prove they “willfully” violated the Gun Control Act. Violating the law is not enough to justify the loss of a license; inspectors must prove that store owners knew they were acting illegally.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan


We have spoken about this before and you know that I agree and thats why I posted the news article, I thought it was different angle compared to the usual arguments put forward for banning or removing firearms.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 12:10 PM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
People who value their business don't tend to play loose with the rules.


Bingo.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 12:17 PM
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originally posted by: Kurokage
I don't usually post in political threads that are to do with solely Americas politics or policies, but I have tried to discuss firearms a handful of times with people who are willing to listen, and discuss the issues without jumping to "oh liberal this" or "Far-right that"


To me the ATF is not a right/left thingamajig. Its as simple as ATF is the All The Fun Police. And that makes them all highly suspect.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 12:21 PM
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Just wondering if there are instances of mass shootings being carried out, where the root cause was determined to be a clerical error on the part of the entity selling a firearm to an individual. Just curious, because clerical errors are going to happen, there's really no way to stop them until you fully automate a process. Even then, the application of that process still needs human supervision in some capacity, thus opening the door for mistakes. What's the acceptable rate of occurrence for a mistake like this? Do they do a risk assessment to determine what the threshold is?

Now the instances you mentioned that were more than clerical errors in nature, active non-compliance should be punished accordingly. Those are clearly not "you forgot to check this box when submitting this form" kinda things, so I agree that those need to be enforced. Ultimately who is responsible for the enforcement though? Who holds the ATF to the standard that they have set?



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