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Statues. . . the new hate speech

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posted on Jun, 6 2018 @ 11:14 PM
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a reply to: Asktheanimals

I, too, grow increasingly tired of it.

It's, to put it bluntly, nothing short of bigotry. The shoe-horning of a segment of our society into a little box that suits a political purpose.

My roots are in the South. Tennessee, West Virginia, and a bit further north into Kentucky and Indiana. Yes, I know, Indiana isn't the South...


My family fought on both sides of the conflict, North and South. Brother against brother, father against son, etc...none were slave holders, none fought for the right to hold another in shackles to be sold at a whim. They fought for each other, for the right to steer their own course without undue interference from a centralized govt.

That rings true today for many of us. Are we "traitors"? According to some, apparently so. So be it.




posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 03:42 AM
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originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: crtrvt

More overly sensitive, easily offended is evolved? ...I would also ask, moving onto what, forgetting where we've been, just means having to go over the same ground again.

That's just plain stupid, imho. Statues, for those who care enough to learn, are reminders of that past. A past that it would be well to remember.



Yes our society is evolving, as do all societies. It's kind of a thing we humans do.

No one is advocating to forget the past, people are just tired of looking at statues that really had nothing to do with the civil war and were intended to intimidate certain groups in the 20th century everytime they go to their parks or city halls.



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 04:18 AM
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For everyone that says the vast majority were only put up to remind black people of their place, how do you tell the difference?

The last confederate veteran died in the late 1950's, so how do you sperate those that were meant to honor or meant as a remembrance and those with racist meaning behind them?

If you just remove them all with no thought to why it was put up, then you end up not much different than the book burners in the 1930's that wanted anything that didnt embrace the Patriotic German Spirit pulled off the shelves and burnt in the street!



edit on 9-6-2018 by Irishhaf because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 05:14 AM
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parks usually fall under one of three categories...
federal parks, that are under the jurisdiction of the federal gov't
state parks, that are under the jurisdiction of the state gov't.
and city and town parks that under the jurisdiction of the city and town gov'ts.

more than likely any statue in a park will fall into one of these jurisdictions, am I right?
and the state, federal, or local gov'ts have a set process when it comes to deciding what is done as far as adding or taking away from these parks, with I assume a democratic means to assure that the voices of those that the gov't represents are considered in the decision.
it's ironic to me to read one of yas talking about how the confederates rebelled against a central gov't.. doesn't that mean that you would prefer your state and local gov'ts be allowed to make more of their own decisions without pressure from the outside? if a higher gov't power can come in and tell one of the lower powers what they can and cannot do in the parks that are within their jurisdiction, like Alabama is doing by telling the local gov'ts that they can't remove these statues without their permission, then who really has jurisdiction for that park? gee... maybe the state wants to take over the cost of maintenance for that park also?? and, if the state is free to come and in and force a city to keep a statue, what prevents them from coming in and ordering a statue removed? what if the community has decided they want something else in the place that the statue stands, maybe they wanted it bad enough that the community raised most of the cost that would be required to build what they wanted? Is it really their park if the state or federal gov't can come in and tell them nope, you have to keep that ugly statue and say good bye to that duck pond, dog park, what ever it is that they want? no, the states have their own set of parks that they can decide what to do with, how to best reflect the principles and values of the state, and if the people of that state don't agree with their decisions, they can vote them out. the cities should have the same right to determine what best reflects the image they want to portray of their town.. and if they want a duck pond, or baseball field or whatever... it's their park, funded by their taxes...

and well, if we respect this idea, then we will see some statues taken down, while others are left undisturbed... and maybe your confederate ancestors might be a bit more happy because the community that they called home was allowed at least some independence in make some decisions.



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 05:28 AM
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a reply to: crtrvt


people are just tired of looking at statues...

More people are tired of listening to a few folks continually whine and cry about something they claim to not care about.

If you're tired of looking at a statue, don't look at it. Duh...

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 05:32 AM
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a reply to: dawnstar


it's ironic to me to read one of yas talking about how the confederates rebelled against a central gov't.. doesn't that mean that you would prefer your state and local gov'ts be allowed to make more of their own decisions without pressure from the outside? if a higher gov't power can come in and tell one of the lower powers what they can and cannot do in the parks that are within their jurisdiction, like Alabama is doing by telling the local gov'ts that they can't remove these statues without their permission, then who really has jurisdiction for that park? gee... maybe the state wants to take over the cost of maintenance for that park also?? and, if the state is free to come and in and force a city to keep a statue, what prevents them from coming in and ordering a statue removed?

Nice try. I reject your attempt at justification. The Alabama law does not allow the state to decide to take down anything... it establishes that any government in Alabama cannot arbitrarily take down one.

Good try at twisting the facts to fit the agenda, though. Have a cookie.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 05:46 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck
that's because their current intent is to protect something that is in the local parks...

and what it says is that the city can't decide to remove the statue without asking the state for permission first....
it will be the state that will decide if the reason for their desire is good enough to justify the removal.
so, I guess if the federal gov't up and decides that no parks anywhere should have them....
all will be fine and good??

my "agenda" is a result of seeing a mob of people, some from as far away as canada flocking into a city near me, marching their the streets carrying teki torches, raising hell, firing guns off at people, and running over the residents of that town....
no, it wasn't their streets, it wasn't their city, it wasn't their park...
it was the resident's park, their streets, their city!!
you have your own city, your own streets, your own parks to worry about... how many are so willing to travel hundreds a miles out of concern about a park that they wouldn't even know existed if it wasn't that they were alerted about a decision that was made about it but haven't ever been to one of their own city council meetings? who has the agenda here?? I'm sorry but I don't think it's the one who is saying leave people, leave communities alone and worry about your own.




edit on 9-6-2018 by dawnstar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 07:24 AM
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a reply to: dawnstar

The problem is, when this group of out-of-towners target a small municipality, it is very easy to scare those local residents (or at least the 'leaders') into submission. That's where the mob you speak of draws their strength. It is far easier to give in and destroy the monuments... the ones that belong to the residents... rather than face an angry mob.

When the laws are in place to prevent such local destruction, though, the local municipalities cannot be forced into destroying their own monuments. The state takes over to protect them, and that can be accomplished with state police and even the National Guard if necessary.

The agenda I speak of appears to me to be one of divide and conquer. How dare the state get involved to stop this unruly mob from running roughshod over the locals? That's taking away their power! Leave them alone so we can take what we want from the weak! No, in reality it is giving them back their power, because they are not being overwhelmed by a superior force.

The only reason anyone could reasonably argue against a state law that forbids the wanton destruction of historical monuments is to ensure that such historical monuments are destroyed.

We see you...

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 07:52 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

what I am saying goes for any mobs on the other side of the fence also...




The problem is, when this group of out-of-towners target a small municipality, it is very easy to scare those local residents (or at least the 'leaders') into submission. That's where the mob you speak of draws their strength. It is far easier to give in and destroy the monuments... the ones that belong to the residents... rather than face an angry mob.


sorry, but unless you can show me where there was a mob of people in charlottesville....
not the college community or local full time residents, that were trying to strong arm the local politicians into tearing down those statues... I am assuming there really wasn't any. could be wrong, but.... you'd have to link to a source that gives me the details of it.
as I see it the only mob trying to strong arm them was the groups involved in the unite to right rally.... and, then even after they killed on redisdent and injured countless others trying to scare the city leaders into seeing things their way...
they promised to come back again and again to make their point clear. luckily, for many of these groups, part of their court settlement was that they wouldn't be coming armed to the teeth anymore into the city for these types of events.

but, no, people, all people, should have enough respect for our communities to allow them the freedom to handle their own affairs unless their chosen way of handling is denying some of their members their constitutional rights. and I would venture to say, if you can't do this, then you it's you who are denying the communities their constitutional rights...

make no mistake about it...
I could give a darn one way or the other about your precious statues. heck, I don't really care about the ones in my own community, why should I care what your community does with theirs. heck, if my hometown had put even half of the effort to protect their lake as yous are trying protect a piece of stone sitting in a city miles away, maybe, just maybe, they would now have a beach that they could at least safely walk their dogs on with out worrying about them dropping dead because of the water in the lake!!



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 07:59 AM
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It is not their right to destroy any statues, which is not even legal, to destroy public property.

One has a right to hate a statue, and someone else could like the statue, also.

Ignorant people destroy statues, which is very stupid.


I think a second, similar statue, should go up....as I see it.



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 08:02 AM
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a reply to: dawnstar


sorry, but unless you can show me where there was a mob of people in charlottesville....

If you have to ask that question,m after all the coverage that was shown of the Charlottesville issues, you are either extremely forgetful, didn't watch the news at all during that time, or are purposely trolling. I leave it to you to decide which.

Bottom line is, I respect my culture, my ancestors, and my history. This is my town and those are my monuments. Hands off! You come to Alabama and start trying to tear down statues, and we have these nice state troopers and National Guard that will politely but firmly inform you of the error of your ways.

Sorry about your lake. Maybe if it hadn't been destroyed, probably by outsiders coming in... like some statues...

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 08:06 AM
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a reply to: turbonium1

a mob can't legally destroy anything in a park... but there are legal means to removing, or adding to what is in the park... whichever gov't entity that has jurisdiction of the park can legally remove something from the park, sell it, donate it, or dispose of it as long as they follow the policies that lay out the procedure to do so...



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 08:09 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

I ... can't find a thing wrong in your logic in the OP.

Well said.

The only restriction is that I do believe in local determination so long as it is constitutional ... so if a city, county, state etc. decides to remove or move a statue for whatever reason ... that's their right.

Aside from that quibble, from my perspective, you're spot on.



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 08:19 AM
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The Confederate flag represented almost half of Americans, back then.

Attacking that flag as a symbol of neo-nazi white racism, and glorifying black slavery, or hatred of all non-whites, is nonsense.

Witch-hunting.



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 08:27 AM
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originally posted by: turbonium1
The Confederate flag represented almost half of Americans, back then.

Attacking that flag as a symbol of neo-nazi white racism, and glorifying black slavery, or hatred of all non-whites, is nonsense.

Witch-hunting.


So, we should ignore the fact that Neo-Nazis and white supremacist groups use the Confederate flag as an emblem?

Why?



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 08:32 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

It's happened throughout history so no surprise it's happening today , I don't agree with it as it's a short sighted move but it seems inherent within us to airbrush the past.



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 08:37 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I saw a red car speeding yesterday. Should we write speeding tickets to everyone who drives a red car? Why not?

Dylan Roof was wearing a hoodie when he shot up that church. Should we convict everyone wearing hoodies of murder? Why not?

I once saw a guy with a beard get arrested for shoplifting. Should we bar everyone with a beard from entering a store to stop shoplifting? Why not?

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 08:41 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

no, you are gonna have to show me where a mob of people showed up in charlottesville in violent protest in an attempt to convince the council to remove them....
BEFORE, the unite the right showed up with the intention of creating chaos over the issue.
I haven't ran across any stories that gave me the impression that the left have done this.
sure they might have shown up at their city councils to voice their displeasure of those statues, but so didn't those who supported them. going through democratic means to change something is allowed and should be encouraged so if that is what you are claiming to be mob action, sorry...




Bottom line is, I respect my culture, my ancestors, and my history. This is my town and those are my monuments.


think I made it pretty clear... I ain't gonna be showing up at your town trying to tell you what to do with your monuments, I agree they are your town's monuments not mine, it's up to your town to come to an agreement as to what is done with them. but then, you have to show the same respect to my town and it's residents, don't you?



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 08:42 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: turbonium1
The Confederate flag represented almost half of Americans, back then.

Attacking that flag as a symbol of neo-nazi white racism, and glorifying black slavery, or hatred of all non-whites, is nonsense.

Witch-hunting.


So, we should ignore the fact that Neo-Nazis and white supremacist groups use the Confederate flag as an emblem?

Why?


Hiya Gryph, you know I'm not aligned with any of these white power groups or far-right dickheads. Despite that, I believe it's possible to respect that flag without being a neo-nazi or a hateful extremist prick. We had the same thing in England when our own flag fell from favour because it was disgraced by association with our own far-right groups. For maybe 30 years, the St George was a symbol of white supremacists in England and nobody could fly it without being equated with hooliganism and hatred.

I do agree that the Confederate flag is a symbol for a lot of white power groups, but I imagine the majority of those who fly it are against such groups. It's kinda like all the Muslim hatred on ATS. The majority of Muslims are held accountable for the deeds of a few. We should all be cautious about extending the same logic to other sections of society.


I've said it before on ATS. The flag represents the positives of 1950s southern USA to me. I'm not blind to the associations, but I think of Sun Records and the music I loved as a little kid in England. It can have different meanings to different people.



posted on Jun, 9 2018 @ 09:14 AM
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a reply to: dawnstar


no, you are gonna have to show me where a mob of people showed up in charlottesville in violent protest in an attempt to convince the council to remove them....

No... I'm not gonna have to do nothing of the sort. Sorry.

No... not even sorry. Keep up.


think I made it pretty clear... I ain't gonna be showing up at your town trying to tell you what to do with your monuments, I agree they are your town's monuments not mine, it's up to your town to come to an agreement as to what is done with them. but then, you have to show the same respect to my town and it's residents, don't you?

Where did I say I was going to come destroy your monuments?

You were the one who started in saying that the Alabama law protecting ours is somehow wrong... I can only assume because you'd really like nothing better than to see all Confederate statues removed, by force if necessary. Otherwise, our law makes perfect sense.

TheRedneck



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