Liberals and gun control, the fatal attraction that puts Republicans in office

i've heard the argument that Liberals [now calling themselves Progressives] are against the public's ownership of guns for the sake of public safety
- and the Second Ammendment's use of the words 'well armed militia' meant the mitlitary and police - Which unfortuanlely sounds to many
like the call for a 'police state' - Is this what these so called progressives want?

No, they will tell you - We just want to outlaw assault rifles [and as that defender of the Liberal cause Dianne Feinstein has shown, is any gun she
does not like] and take on the NRA [National Rifle Association] - As they seem to think this leading organization defending the Second Amendment
is responsible for all mass murders by terrorists, including school shooters. Pity when they take away the guns and they start using bombs -then
who will they blame?

I'm really convinced that this issue, gun control, loses more elections for Liberals, Progressives, and Socialists, than any other
- And I don't care how left leaning you are, I too sympathize with many left wing points of view
- But mess with The United States Constitution, and don't expect to win elections as you will not be trustedl !

What do you think? - Do you think 'the public' wants more gun control? - What's more of a threat, too many guns or too many politicians
trying to take them away

a reply to: AlienView

I am going to honest here. I stopped watching news on the tube a few months back but I still make my rounds on the internet. I go to all news sites you can think of. I believe that reading all news sources is helpful to fully understand what is actually going on in the world.
With that being said I have never seen a article from a “left” leaning site that says we should take away guns. I personally believe that is a fabrication made to help further the divide between people. The only organizations that I have seen say that are those that believe that the left is evil.
I have seen articles from left leaning sites that say the AR-15 should be illegal. I think that is bull crap though. Now I may have missed some articles that say we should outlaw guns but if I did see that I just keep scrolling cause that is complete crap.

I have tried diligently to understand the logic of my liberal acquaintances, after the election I don’t have many liberal friends. I simply can’t get it. I am an older gentleman, is the progressive movement a new name for what we called the dumbing down of America?

It seems to me that they intentionally push logical people away in order to commit harm to their own party. Some of the statements coming from party leaders is far from logical, sensible, moral, or even legal.

I think the DNC is on a very self destructive course. As a past democratic member, I don’t even recognize what’s left. JFK and my grandfather would be ashamed of their once proud Democrats, I know I am.

a reply to: Allaroundyou

Yes, that might be true - BUT I've been following this issue for years - And for reasons I do not fully understand, an
assortment of anti-gun and anti Second Amendment [in its intended original meaning] groups have found a sympathetic ear in the Liberal, now calling themselves Progressives, left. - For the moment they're not talking about taking away all guns
- But many poeple, rightly or wrongly, perceive this to be the case for their long term goals.

Do you remember the term 'NRA Democrat'? I haven't heard that term used in years.

And the word 'Liberal Republican' is only occasionaly used - So you see it's more than the gun issue tha's dividing the
United States - Its as though the two political parties are living in parallel but separate universes.

I've suggersted several times a new 'Center coalition' political party but no one seems interested.

"It's Time for a New Political Party in the United States"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Remember Ross Perot from the 90s? - He was actually ahead in the polls until he quit and then decided
to make a comeback - too late - Still I cannot remeber what he represented, saving for an alternative
to the same old Democrat vs. Republican paradigm.

And isn't this one of the main reasons Donald Trump is President? - He came across as the independent!

When the two major 'Progressive Political candidates for govenor in my state have done a great job of
convincing any reasonable person watching them that neither one should be in office
- And when the only thing they agree upon is that they are Progressives, will 'take on the NRA"
and outlaw 'assault rifles' [just exactly what is an assault rifle?] - They become mistrusted by many, many,
otherwise Liberal leaning people - Who start to mistrust the intentions amd motivations of so-called
Liberals/Progressive/Socialsts. - And if nothig else, ensure the continued triumph of the Conservative 'right wing' ideology.

a reply to: Allaroundyou

Do a google search and you will find those stories you miss. I will admit, it’s not the easiest search thanks to Google.

Next time any gun poll comes out, read all the questions asked. For some reason, ‘do you want to ban all guns’ is not one of the questions.

Double post...sorry

I blame net nutrality

a reply to: Allaroundyou

Problem is they (the left) do a piss poor job of articulating their stance when it comes to gun control, they cant seem to agree what constitutes an assault weapon. Others think anything with a semi auto designation, still others fixated on anything that looks like it belongs on a military weapon. Then you have the endorsement of people like Hogg who has made no bones about wanting to get all guns.

All this disfunction makes it easy to connect the dots to they want all guns, truth of that statement is irrelevant.

Until the left can clean up its message in regards to gun control, and brings a clear easy to follow argument for further gun control to the table they will continue to get torpedoed by this one argument.

originally posted by: AlienView
a reply to: Allaroundyou

Yes, that might be true - BUT I've been following this issue for years - And for reasons I do not fully understand, an
assortment of anti-gun and anti Second Amendment [in its intended original meaning] groups have found a sympathetic ear in the Liberal, now calling themselves Progressives, left. - For the moment they're not talking about taking away all guns
- But many poeple, rightly or wrongly, perceive this to be the case for their long term goals.

Do you remember the term 'NRA Democrat'? I haven't heard used in years.

And the word 'Liberal Republican' is only occasionaly used - So you see it's more than the gun issue tha's dividing the
United States - Its as though the two political parties are living in parallel but separate universes.

I've suggersted several times a new 'Center coalition' political party but no one seems interested.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Remember Ross Perot from the 90s? - He was actually ahead in the polls until he quit and then decided
to make a comeback - too late - Still I cannot remeber what he represented, saving for an alternative
to the same old Democrat vs. Republican paradigm.

When the two major 'Progressive Political candidates for govenor in my state have done a great job of
convincing any reasonable person watching them that neither one should be in office
- And when the only thing they agree upon is that they are Progressives, will 'take on the NRA"
and outlaw 'assault rifles' [just exactly what is an assault rifle?] - They become mistrusted by many, many,
otherwise Liberal leaning people - Who start to mistrust the intentions amd motivations of so-called
Liberals/Progressive/Socialsts.

I pulled that thread up in another windows for reading later. After I read it I will get back to ya. I did read the first little bit and am very intrigued.

originally posted by: SocratesJohnson
a reply to: Allaroundyou

Do a google search and you will find those stories you miss. I will admit, it’s not the easiest search thanks to Google.

Next time any gun poll comes out, read all the questions asked. For some reason, ‘do you want to ban all guns’ is not one of the questions.

I don’t know if I want to search that cause it may just piss me off lol. But I will....

a reply to: Irishhaf

There is no clear cut message, because undermining the words, and intent of the Constitution doesn't go over well.

a reply to: Mach2

I know but at least if they had a clear message they could possibly sway some independent voters back to their side, but this naked all over the place confusion that they have now is making it harder for people in the middle to give them a chance.

Pure and total b.s. what needs to happen is we need to stop normalizing the mental defectives on the right when it comes to gun issues.

a reply to: Irishhaf

I don't see this as a major, needle moving issue. Yes, ppl have strong feelings about it, but I'm not sure it would be the over riding consideration for most. The leaders of the Democratic party are increasingly radical, to the point of socialism, that centrists/inds won't touch them.

I dont know. Bernie Sanders state doesn't even require a permit for carry. Maybe society isn't as neatly in a box as they want us yet.

originally posted by: Allaroundyou
a reply to: AlienView

...I have never seen a article from a “left” leaning site that says we should take away guns. I personally believe that is a fabrication made to help further the divide between people. The only organizations that I have seen say that are those that believe that the left is evil.

For the most part, I agree that few gun control advocates admit to wanting to ban all guns, but there are a few. Here's one from The New Republic: It’s Time to Ban Guns. Yes, All of Them.

Ban guns. All guns. Get rid of guns in homes, and on the streets, and, as much as possible, on police. Not just because of San Bernardino, or whichever mass shooting may pop up next, but also not not because of those. Don’t sort the population into those who might do something evil or foolish or self-destructive with a gun and those who surely will not. As if this could be known—as if it could be assessed without massively violating civil liberties and stigmatizing the mentally ill. Ban guns! Not just gun violence. Not just certain guns. Not just already-technically-illegal guns. All of them.

Here's another one: Maybe it’s finally time to just ban all guns

Maybe it is finally time to just ban guns. After all, if there are no guns, then even the bad guys won’t be able to get them.

And here's one more (albeit with an exception for hunters): You say gun control doesn't work? Fine. Let's ban guns altogether.

My personal preference? It's a decidedly minority viewpoint, but I say, ban them, with a carve-out for hunting weapons.

Diane Feinstein is on camera saying that if she could have gotten the votes to do so, she would have.
Justice Stevens is on record as saying we need to repeal the 2nd Amendment.

I don't think it's unreasonable for folks to suspect that there is more to the gun-control agenda than is being publicly expressed. At the very least, it is practical to consider not just the benefits of any/all proposed laws, but also the negatives of any/all proposed laws. As it stands, at least in theory, the Constitution protects ALL gun rights, not just some. As soon as we start limiting and restricting those rights, we open the door to limiting and restricting all those rights.

If gun control advocates don't want to ban all guns, then they should start saying so, loud and clear, and provide very clear explanations of what they do want to restrict and why. The ambiguity only feeds the fire.

a reply to: Boadicea

I think you are discrediting that people are being manipulated by outside forces. They are being told what they are and given a rebuttal side. This is evident in how common arguments manifest themselves. If we were individuals we wouldn't be so quick to jump on a narrative and reuse it over and over.

Google liberal position on guns.

You will see hundreds of articles on why liberals are wrong. It's actually very hard to find what the liberal position is and very easy to find what the opposition feels the position is.

Probably vice versa if you look up a different set of words.

It may help to stop fighting with narratives and try as best as possible to have individual thought and meaningful discussion. How? I don't know but Joe Rogan seems to do it and he is probably the most popular pod caster that deals with subjects like this. So people are interested in having and hearing discussion that isn't just talking points.

a reply to: luthier

I think you are discrediting that people are being manipulated by outside forces.

My apologies... but I really don't understand where you're going with this or how it responds to my very specific response to another comment. I was not trying to speak for ALL progressives or ALL gun control advocates or ALL of anyone with a certain label. I was specifically addressing the comment that there are no calls for a ban on all guns by any liberal/progressive websites. I provided examples of exactly that. And I also acknowledged that there are relatively few calling for an outright ban.

Sure, folks are being manipulated in many ways and for many reasons... that's the age we live in. But how is that relevant to this discussion? Manipulated or not, they are still calling for a ban on ALL guns. The end result is the same.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: luthier

I think you are discrediting that people are being manipulated by outside forces.

My apologies... but I really don't understand where you're going with this or how it responds to my very specific response to another comment. I was not trying to speak for ALL progressives or ALL gun control advocates or ALL of anyone with a certain label. I was specifically addressing the comment that there are no calls for a ban on all guns by any liberal/progressive websites. I provided examples of exactly that. And I also acknowledged that there are relatively few calling for an outright ban.

Sure, folks are being manipulated in many ways and for many reasons... that's the age we live in. But how is that relevant to this discussion? Manipulated or not, they are still calling for a ban on ALL guns. The end result is the same.

Liberals and gun control, the fatal attraction that puts Republicans in office

This appears to me to be more boxing of views.

My point is maybe if we treat people as individuals and shuck off the narratives rather than reinforce them we can have discussions that are more real.

Vermont is a liberal state. They have very few gun laws. The first major gun laws they have had were passed by a Republican.

Just food for thought. Maybe making an enemy before listing to thir individual thoughts creates tribalism.

a reply to: AlienView


I seriously hope that the DNC makes Gun Control, Tax cut repeal, and Trump Impeachment the center of their mid-term campaign.


Bill Clinton's Costly Assault Weapons Ban
Patrick Griffin, his chief congressional affairs lobbyist, recalls the lead up to the bill’s passage in 1994—and the steep political price that followed.

www.theatlantic.com...

We lost 53 seats in the rural areas [in the 1994 midterms], particularly in the South.

When asked if this bill was a key element, Griffin said: “Absolutely. Yes. I’d say, for 40 of those seats, yes. For [Judiciary Committee] Chairman [Jack] Brooks (of Texas) to lose his seat [after 42 years]? Foley? These guys had been safe forever. And they voted against all this stuff but they were still targeted politically because their president was for the [assault weapon] ban.”

The political price for passing the ban included the loss of Congress to the Republicans in 1994, endangering Clinton’s agenda, and creating the partisan conditions on Capitol Hill that produced his own impeachment. Even Clinton himself, looking back on the assault weapon ban in his memoir, My Life, concluded that he had likely “pushed the Congress, the country, and the administration too hard.”

a reply to: infolurker

So in other words the purpose of this is to win. It is not to have discussion or create a society where people can all have a point of view.

In other words tribalism.