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Trump's tariffs should be an affront to anybody claiming to support the freemarket

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posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 08:29 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Willtell
Hmm, they seem to be simply calling for a higher tariff on Chinese aluminum, not calling for no tariffs on aluminum imports. Try again, Willtell.

Not only that, but brace yourself: those companies quoted have conflicting interests!
Alcoa has a plant in Canada. And owns two major plants in Russia. They sold their interest in a Chinese plant...
Rio Tinto Alcan is a Canadian company. It also has sold interests in Chinese plants...

Why is that significant? From the article he cites:



Canada is the top exporter to the US, followed by Russia.



Gee, I just can't fathom why these Aluminum companies are against across the board tariffs and want to focus on Chinese imports specifically...

Also ignores the fact the tariffs are the tool to negotiate better deals with other countries, not a permanent end goal...




posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 08:29 PM
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a reply to: Willtell

You do this a lot, man, and it's offputting. "It may" or "it might," yeah, nothing in life is a sure thing except for death and having to listen to someone, somewhere bitch about everything at one time or another. That said, what has happened to the concept of risk/reward in your world? The reward for a number of these potential solution President Trump is utilizing is YUGE. The risks, while admittedly great, are no greater than the risks seen if we continue on the current path. What I'm getting at is that you're overstating the obvious time after time, after time, after time. We get it, these solutions may fail... but they may not fail. Try going against your inner pessimist for a change, you may find it to be refreshing and it might put a smile on your face when things work out for the best.



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 08:31 PM
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a reply to: RadioRobert

Wow, nice catch there. I knew Rio Tinto was Canadian... but I missed that angle entirely.



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 08:36 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

Two points:

And you’re forgetting the sinister conspiracies that exist in America to stop the progress of the little guy.
The very foundation of ATS. I’m saying indeed Trump may be a flack for these deep state guys to waylay real progress on fronts like trade
When he fu____ things up so bad, we’ll NEVER try it again

And to your other point.
I wonder did you guys have the same get up and go mentality with Obama’s attempt to get everybody good health insurance?



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 08:39 PM
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a reply to: RadioRobert

Of course, they’re greedy and have secret interests here and there. So does Trump, like his private deals with China

Also, the issue is more complex than Trump simplistic view

edit on 1-6-2018 by Willtell because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 08:40 PM
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The steel tariff will amount to about $100 a ton so it really won't effect consumer product prices that much in the US.
The tariff income will be US federal revenue so that helps.
Large commercial enterprise contracts will be more likely to stay in America.
Remember the steel contract for the World Trade Center towers went to Japan back in the 60's..



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Two points:

And you’re forgetting the sinister conspiracies that exist in America to stop the progress of the little guy.
The very foundation of ATS. I’m saying indeed Trump may be a flack for these deep state guys to waylay real progress on fronts like trade
When he fu____ things up so bad, we’ll NEVER try it again

Yeah, ATS has had some pretty damn idiotic conspiracy theories over the years, I'll say that. And FYI, you did it again... "Trump may be..." Winged monkeys may fly out of your buttchecks while you're typing, Willtell, so be sure to cut a large hole in the seat of your trousers and the chair you're in to avoid structural damage.


I wonder did you guys have the same get up and go mentality with Obama’s attempt to get everybody good health insurance?

Hell no I did not because we're not the United goddamned Socialist States of America. I believe in personal responsibility, not hand holding, brother's keeper, kumbayah bullsnip.



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 08:49 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

That’s your extreme view. Most people don’t think universal health insurance is socialism. Trump also doesn’t think so. He claimed to try to improve it, remember.

So 911 and all the known conspiracies are bs. Or do you know anything about real conspiracies like operation Northwinds?

I doubt you do

Or are you just a fanatic right-wing Trump cultist.

You belong on ATS like Trump belongs in a BLM meeting



Furthermore...

That's right I'm saying bluntly...Trump is so God damned stupid he will do more harm than good

I guess you can understand that principle, that’s not too deep for you I guess
If I put it in words you understand

And you can bet your last dollar these deep state bastards do sinister acts like that

Hire a jackass like Trump to f___ things up




edit on 1-6-2018 by Willtell because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 08:57 PM
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originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: RadioRobert

Of course, they’re greedy and have secret interests here and there. So does Trump, like his private deals with China

Also, the issue is more complex than Trump simplistic view


So you posted a misleading anti-tariff cite about "Even aluminum producers don’t want Trump’s aluminum tariff " which neglects to mention those companies have overseas interests affected but also still want Chinese sanctions...

And your best response when exposed is "of course"...

Swell.



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:00 PM
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a reply to: Willtell

Uh no I didn't support healthcare for everyone.

State insurance have me.
Rheumatoid arthritis..
Because an MRI wasn't covered.

Cheaper to medicate than operate and fix right?

R/A treatment suppressed my immune system. Which led to: meningitis, pneumonia..

Treatment also ruined enamel on my teeth. No love from a state paid dentist either.

Private pay I received a proper diagnosis. Immune system 100% oh and the nasty RA, just torn cartilage.

Single payer~'no thanks. I'd rather my neighbor try a doctor Google.

I'm old enough to remember affordable healthcare and real doctors.

Being introduced to state/ federal paid doctors and health insurance I learned one thing. It's a joke.

When how full a docs pocket is dependent on his patients health (not a government guideline) you'll find patients with overall better health.




posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:01 PM
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a reply to: Willtell

My opposition to Obamacare was constitutional. It is not an enumerated power of the federal government to require the citizens to purchase anything. Amendment procedures exist for a reason and are clearly stated in order to award new powers.



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:03 PM
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originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

originally posted by: enlightenedservant


Libertarians have long been against tariffs and any other economic hurdle to doing business. And both free trade and the free market are all about reducing legal hurdles and obstacles to doing business globally.


What's a people to do when their trading "partners" have quazi / de facto / overt tariffs active against them?


Moving the goalposts? The argument here is that people who claim to support the free market should be against this. And ironically, libertarians generally see tariffs and economic protectionism as left wing policies. To further my point about what actual libertarians think, here's something from the Libertarian Party's 2016 party platform (HERE):

3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.

And the entire "Economy" page on the Libertarian Party's official website (HERE) is talking about reducing govt interference meddling in the markets. Tariffs are literally the opposite of that. And if that's not enough, the Libertarian Party even put out an article in March that directly opposes the Trump tariffs (HERE), which includes the following:

Libertarians are very clear in opposing all tariffs. From the Libertarian Party platform: “We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade.” Republican House Speaker Paul Ryan and other congressional Republicans are attempting to prevent Trump’s tariffs, particularly the 25 percent tariff on steel and the 10 percent tariff on aluminum.

And here's another March article, this one's from BeingLibertarian.com, and it's literally titled "Tariffs Are A Form of Taxation and Taxation Is Theft". And as one would guess, it's clearly against these tariffs, too.

Now, if you think that our trade partners are exploiting us, that's one thing. But a pro-free trade, pro-free market approach would be to negotiate for them to reduce their taxes, tariffs, etc on our goods, not to increase the taxes, tariffs, etc on their goods (since the goal is allegedly to have a tariff-free and burden-free global economy). And the political concept of "reciprocity" just means that they'll impose additional taxes and tariffs on our goods that match the value of our new taxes and tariffs, which is again against the concepts of free trade and free markets.

Ironically, unions are often supportive of tariffs and other bans on importation of products because those imports can lessen the demand of domestically produced items, which clearly effects the jobs of union members here. But many of the same people who are supporting trump on this are also actively against unions, which makes this even more bizarre.



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:03 PM
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originally posted by: RadioRobert

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: RadioRobert

Of course, they’re greedy and have secret interests here and there. So does Trump, like his private deals with China

Also, the issue is more complex than Trump simplistic view


So you posted a misleading anti-tariff cite about "Even aluminum producers don’t want Trump’s aluminum tariff " which neglects to mention those companies have overseas interests affected but also still want Chinese sanctions...

And your best response when exposed is "of course"...

Swell.

No, they said it outright they are worried.

Oh, so you study everybody’s business interests they have before you quote them?
Sure

You need to read the link

Also, you should then look at trumps business interests



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:10 PM
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originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: Willtell

My opposition to Obamacare was constitutional. It is not an enumerated power of the federal government to require the citizens to purchase anything. Amendment procedures exist for a reason and are clearly stated in order to award new powers.


You could be against Obamacare for any reason you want. That’s not the point.
Birdman says we should be gung-ho for Trump’s risky policies, but on Obama’s, we don’t get risky because that’s socialism. That was the point in that interchange.
I was pointing out his inconsistency.
edit on 1-6-2018 by Willtell because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:15 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

You make a good point.

If a Democrat tried this the same people here defending Trump would be against it.

Imagine Obama or Hillary doing this and the reaction to these here Trump defenders.
They’d be apoplectic:

Communism, socialism, controlled economy, tyranny



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: Willtell

All it means to me is that they're more loyal to the person (Trump) than they are to any actual policy positions.



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:29 PM
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a reply to: Southern Guardian

You'd have to either be insane or dumb as rocks to think a global free market is a good thing.



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:31 PM
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I've noticed that there's a few character traits that all anti-trumpers seem to share; hate, ignorance & hypocrisy and they seem to love the Mud-Pit for the simple fact that they can exercise these traits. It's futile to have a honest and civl debate with ya's. Ya'll could care less about the actual topic at hand because you're only message is one of hate against Trump and the GOP. I was going to post a comment about some of the misconceptions you've posted especially concerning the EPA, but why bother, it would only be a waste of time seeing that you're only concern is for spreading your hate for Trump.

This $hit gets old, maybe I just need a break, IDK. I'm off to go play some music, enjoy your hate I guess.



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:33 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

Free markets are a good thing. However, the issue is that a free market has to be fair to all parties to work. You cannot have a country dumping their products in your free market, but then that same country turning around using tariffs and subsidies to the detriment of your economy / businesses.

Trumps MO is threatening tariffs to get these countries back to the negotiating table to lower their tariffs. Kind of like a game of chicken. Fine, if you won't lower your tariffs to make it more fair for American companies competing, then we will make it harder for you to do business in America too. Fair is fair.

America is the largest and most wealthy consumer market. Other countries have more to lose than we do...



posted on Jun, 1 2018 @ 09:35 PM
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a reply to: Willtell



No, they said it outright they are worried. 

Oh, so you study everybody’s business interests they have before you quote them? 
Sure 

You need to read the link 


I did read the link. I also know they have international operations directly affected by the tariffs. No wonder they are "worried". Are you actually questioning whether Alcoa has Canadian and Russian plants or Alcan (Aluminum Cananda) has Canadian operations going to be affected by the tariffs? Or is this just reflexive, "nuh uh" posting?





You make a good point. 

If a Democrat tried this the same people here defending Trump would be against it. 

Says the man who started a thread slamming Trump for among other things not following his "populist promise" to institute protectionist tariffs.



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