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UFOs, not Aliens: The Difference and Why it Matters.

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posted on Jun, 3 2018 @ 10:02 PM
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originally posted by: 111DPKING111
If some of the good sightings like Levelland, Westall , Colares , Hudson Valley, or Belgium are all just military sightings - so be it. But if they arent us, its only reasonable to assume they are alien. Its just insulting peoples intelligence to say otherwise.
Why would you think the Hudson Valley UFOs aren't us?

And even if you don't know that, it's still not right to assume it's alien just because you don't know what it is. That's the theme of this thread which you don't seem to get.



originally posted by: mirageman
Of course it doesn't make the story false but it introduces a huge element of doubt. If it isn't true then how many other stories might not be true? Which means we come back to how do we decide the wheat from the chaff.
I thought the Hudson valley stories were largely true and the UFOs were determined to be flown by The Martians, who were identified so after that identification they weren't really UFOs anymore.

But then the "UFO believers" tried to claim that the "UFOs" flew in almost the same place at the same time and looked and behaved the same way as The Martian's crafts, but they weren't the same things flown by the Martians. This really makes you question the bias of the "UFO believers" who make basically the same claims about the first incident of the Phoenix lights, where people who saw the "UFO" through magnification could identify it, but people not looking through magnification couldn't identify it, but it had the same appearance, flying in the same place at the same time.

The Hudson Valley UFO Mystery

This alleged UFO only existed at a time and place where the Martians were doing their nighttime formation flying. The UFO looked the same, behaved the same, it flew in the same way and in the same place. Would that not be a staggering coincidence? Isn't it more likely that our human perceptual errors and confirmation bias and selective memory and all the other cognitive phenomena that shape our perceptions played some role here? Personally, I think it is.


Speaking of Phoenix lights, the video in the OP makes a big deal out of that and apparently he doesn't know that both Phoenix lights events have been explained, so the guy making a video about UFOs doesn't seem to know much about UFOs if he doesn't know that.

Of course there are always die hards who think eyewitnesses can't make any mistakes in their perceptions, in spite of a mountain of evidence that they not only can but do, over and over again in well-documented cases (which is why we need photos and videos by the way, and it's the video of the Phoenix lights event which indisputably proves the witnesses made perceptual errors). Since The Martians were well known in Hudson Valley I don't know why people think there's still a mystery.

edit on 201863 by Arbitrageur because: clarification




posted on Jun, 3 2018 @ 10:12 PM
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a reply to: mirageman


What does all the data MUFON have accumulated actually tell us that we didn't know 30,40 or 50 years ago?

My personal guess is we are under some kind of observation by at least one alien species, maybe a group of scientist. Even if there was some kind of disclosure, its possible thats all the information we would get. What if they have communicated with some govts, who knows if they told them the truth, or that their intentions hadnt changed over time.

Just think in terms of black projects like stealth technology, we were told we had it eventually, but nothing more than that.

What information are you hoping to get?


Of course it doesn't make the story false but it introduces a huge element of doubt. If it isn't true then how many other stories might not be true? Which means we come back to how do we decide the wheat from the chaff.


I tried to do some digging into the Indian point part of the sighting but didnt come up with anything online, you would think someone who lived in that area would have some means of verifying this part of the story. However if you dont believe the other parts of it, I think your skepticism is without hope MM!

"With that in mind, what really stood out about the Night Siege phenomenon was the raw volume of consistent and often simultaneous sightings. During some of the more notable incidents, the Taconic Parkway clogged with cars pulling over to view the UFO. Police phones were overwhelmed with calls and dozens of officers saw it."



posted on Jun, 3 2018 @ 10:25 PM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur


Why would you think the Hudson Valley UFOs aren't us?


I think there are arguments for both sides, but either way, its really disappointing an answer could not be obtained from the govt given the number of people who saw it.



And even if you don't know that, it's still not right to assume it's alien just because you don't know what it is. That's the theme of this thread which you don't seem to get.


I will try to use smaller words in my posts, but I have been trying to argue against the premise of the thread. In my opinion, if it wasnt humans operating that V, its only natural for someone to think it was aliens.



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 07:28 AM
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a reply to: 111DPKING111



My personal guess is we are under some kind of observation by at least one alien species, maybe a group of scientist. Even if there was some kind of disclosure, its possible thats all the inform


If we are left to guess then it probably means that the evidence and reports that MUFON have acquired over the years doesn't place us much further on from the 1950s.




I tried to do some digging into the Indian point part of the sighting but didnt come up with anything online


There is a report here : www.nicap.org...

Like I said the problem with that particular part of the Hudson Valley sightings is that all roads seem to lead back to Phil Imbrogno as the only source of the story.



However if you dont believe the other parts of it, I think your skepticism is without hope MM!


I probably didn't phrase it very will. There certainly are other sightings and witnesses on the record for the Hudson Valley sightings. But what I was meaning is that if Phil Imbrogno is untrustworthy and his particular account about the UFO over the Indian Point Power Station was falsified then how many other people have told such stories? How many false UFO stories are out there?



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 09:07 AM
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a reply to: karl 12

The difference does matter karl for sure. But we need to not concern ourselves over the top with where they come from as they are everywhere all of the time. The big question to me is why can we only see them very occasionally when they are around us all the time. Why this fleeting moment? They are here they are there, but only very occasionally do we see the. Is that because of them or us?



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 09:31 AM
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a reply to: 111DPKING111




In my opinion, if it wasnt humans operating that V, its only natural for someone to think it was aliens.



Then using that logic its also only natural to believe Dolphins operate aerial craft that are seen and labeled as UFOs.

Only thing is we have proof the dolphins exist and are alive and living right here on earth and are intelligent enough to communicate via language.

Its a massive leap and not natural to go from unknown to alien life form.

It seems natural to those investigating and into UFOlogy because its right there front and center of the psyche and a bias takes over their rational or deeper critical thinking



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 01:16 PM
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a reply to: Erno86

Erno, see what you mean about the 'demonizing' of the UFO subject by religious cultists but when it comes to the subject as a whole I do think Caravaca (and Vallee) make some very fair points and the inter-dimensional angle should at least be considered - if only for the sheer number and variety of UFO shapes and occupants reported over the years - the absurdity (and non continuity) of said occupants behaviour should also be taken into account.

With so many 'flavours' out there then a kind of multidimensional paraphysical explanation doesn't seem too outlandish to me (if anything can be when discussing the UFO subject) - it's all just healthy speculation based on the reported data but maybe there actually is an intelligent phenomenon from a different reality interacting with our physical world and toying with us (like we do with a cat and a laser pointer) - who knows?

Cheers.
edit on 4-6-2018 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 02:10 PM
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a reply to: mirageman

Hola my friend and good to see you too - yes the UFO subject is an extremely serious mystery (which governments take extremely seriously) and you make some very good points about the various studies conducted - let's also not forget the Rutledge study as posted by The Gut.


Project Identification: Ufology's Red-Headed Stepchild


Time is a bit of a factor at the mo but when it comes to Mr Davenport I'd imagine he's a bit swamped due to the fact that the only thing the US Government does when one of its citizens reports a UFO is to give his number out and put the phone down (maybe Bigelows as well but that report then becomes private data) - I know he's trying to get his passive radar idea off the ground whilst singlehandedly manning the hotline so hats off to him - you're also not wrong about the need to crunch the data and ask who's going to pay for definitive study (maybe we should both volunteer
)

Will get back to you on the other points soon mate but when it comes to the claim that 'UFOs are of no defense significance' then how do they reason that incidents like this do not affect National Security- the mind boggles.





MinotUFO


Cheers.
edit on 4-6-2018 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 03:03 PM
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originally posted by: karl 12
a reply to: mirageman

Time is a bit of a factor at the mo but when it comes to Mr Davenport I'd imagine he's a bit swamped due to the fact that the only thing the US Government does when one of its citizens reports a UFO is to give his number out and put the phone down (maybe Bigelows as well but that report then becomes private data) - I know he's trying to get his passive radar idea off the ground whilst singlehandedly manning the hotline so hats off to him - you're also not wrong about the need to crunch the data and ask who's going to pay for definitive study (maybe we should both volunteer
)



If you are talking about the "MADAR" system...It is a great idea, but, unfortunately won't work well, and will probably never return useful results.

While I am a bit reluctant to put forth a better implementation (I may wan to do it...). A far better way to do this would be to employ the magnetometer in most cell phones (my Galaxy S7 for instance has a three axis magnetometer built-in) this sensor combined with the phones GPS, the right software, and a central database would cover a far greater physical area, and provide better data logging...this should make NUFORIC's effort to correlate magnetic anomalies with sighting far easier and more productive.

Then we combine that database with personal monitoring systems (wristband health monitors) and maybe we can begin to detect and actually learn about abductions as well.



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: karl 12

I"m sure that you are aware that Kit Green is of the opinion,
that many of the so-called UFO / Nuclear incidents were
simple readiness testing and not "UFOs" at all.

I concur.

I'm also of the opinion, that the few such incidents that
were not readiness testing, were likely disinformation
from another faction.

Of all "UFO cases" it's the ones around ICBM sites that
I trust the least.

I mean, I put them on the same level as Billy Meyers.

Now mind you, there could be one or two somewhere..
maybe even Minot that is not a psyop.. I'm not an
expert on Minot.

You said it yourself my friend.. the huge collage of
endless shapes, colors and characteristics of "UFOs"
completely invalidate most UFO theories.. and
that includes this variety too.

The usual narrative seems to be that benevolent
aliens are watching over us, and don't want us to
destroy ourselves. (and thus play with our nukes
to show us who is boss).

But there is no evidence for that.. none..

Quite frankly, a civilization even 50 years in advance
of us would be of infinite more help to us, than these
"fake UFO/alien galactic confederations, which don't
seem to exist and/or don't actually care about humans
one tiny bit.

The most believable "UFO" evidence of all, is those
tens of thousands of cored out cattle, elk, deer,
cats, dogs, badgers, seals, bison, and the dozens
of other species, including the mutilated humans.

Kev



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 05:33 PM
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Ever since man was technologically able to fly, the shape of his aircrafts were mainly triangular (Planes), circular/oval (Blimps, Balloons, Helicopters), or elongated (Rockets).


Would our concept of how we design our aircrafts be similar to how an alien civilization would design theirs?


As for the "disclosure" that a lot of UFO/Alien believers are hoping for...it won't happen. For the simple reason that is...there is nothing to disclose.

And even if there is something out there, even our governments cannot fathom what it is because we still lack the technology to study them and our scientists are still bounded by our orthodox understanding of physics.
edit on 4-6-2018 by xconvoyx because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 10:15 PM
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a reply to: mirageman



If we are left to guess then it probably means that the evidence and reports that MUFON have acquired over the years doesn't place us much further on from the 1950s.


Certainly frustrating, at some point you hope one or more sightings will make govts come clean with at least what they think they know...Even if we knew most the sightings on this website were true, how much more would we really know about their motives?


if Phil Imbrogno is untrustworthy and his particular account about the UFO over the Indian Point Power Station was falsified then how many other people have told such stories? How many false UFO stories are out there?


Maybe only a handful of sightings are the real deal, hard to know when an event could just last a few seconds, but there are those cases like Hudson Valley that cant be completely dismissed. I personally thought your Levelland thread should have gotten more attention on this site. Another case where I think if it wasnt humans, aliens makes the most sense to me.



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 10:26 PM
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a reply to: InhaleExhale


Its a massive leap and not natural to go from unknown to alien life form.


I think its perfectly normal one might assume the Hudson Valley sightings were humans(instead of uknown), but if not us, the same reasoning should work for picking other candidates. I personally wouldnt jump to dolphins next, but to each their own.



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 11:06 PM
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a reply to: 111DPKING111
What about whales then? Human brains are only about 1.3 kg in men and 1.2 kg in women, but sperm whale brains can be 8-9 kg, much bigger than ours. Some of those craft are said to be large enough to contain whales.

Or what about time travelers instead of aliens?



posted on Jun, 4 2018 @ 11:17 PM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur

I mentioned time travelers in the first page, but forgot about whales !



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 04:18 AM
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a reply to: majickJimi

Here he is discussing the passive system mate





Mark Rodeghier's UFODATA project also looks like a very interesting one but seems to have stalled somewhat.






'Our own view is that humanity knows very little about the true nature of unexplained UFO reports and that the only way to resolve this lack of understanding is through serious scientific study'



The great Ted Phillips is also conducting some mighty fine research in Marley woods (with some very freaky UFO/paranormal events being reported) - let's hope everyone gets the funding they need.




Cheers.
edit on 5-6-2018 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 05:37 AM
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originally posted by: 111DPKING111

In the case of Hudson Valley, if it wasnt humans operating that huge V(and maybe it us), is it so crazy to assume it was aliens?



No mate I don't think it's crazy only that there may be other explanations of origin to explore - as seen by the interviews in the video below I'd say it's pretty apparent 'something' was seen by huge numbers of people on 50 separate nights over an18 month period - its' just wtf it was and where it came from?


See 21:20




Countless freaky cases out there which really do leave a person scratching their head - below are 6 random lesser known ones just involving unknown objects , is it so crazy to suggest that they all may encompass one intelligent phenomenon or may be from another plane of existence (or organic shapeshifters or AI avatars or cryptoterrestrial tech or paranormal manefestations or cetacean tychonauts etc.)


1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6



originally posted by: 111DPKING111

However if calling them UAPs or whatever gets more eyes/funding on it, go for it.


I think that's about the size of it.

Whether through apathy, ignorance or conditioning most people dismiss the UFO subject due to the deeply entrenched ETH and that of course is only one possible explanation of origin.

I really do agree with many of the points made in the first vid and think it's the right director to go in.

Cheers.



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 09:31 AM
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a reply to: karl 12

I'm a huge fan of the inverse investigative hypothesis.

I mean, if a magician wants you to not notice his left hand,
he makes all these exaggerated flourishes with his right
hand.

If some phenomenon were actually based on the earth
and from the earth, and didn't trust humans (big shocker
there). Then it might well create diversions up in the sky
to get the monkey's chattering about it.

If some phenomenon hated humans, it would go on and
on about how it loved humans, but not help in the least..
hmmmm.

If a phenomenon were pure information or nearly so,
it might bang large bells being "nuts and bolts".

You might notice that the "occult scientists" no longer
care about the diversions in the sky.. but are looking
for tracks in the human body... that's most wise.

Kev



posted on Jun, 5 2018 @ 10:05 AM
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a reply to: karl 12



Some interesting ideas...

Though I am quite skeptical about the "passive radar" notion. You see, passive radar has one feature that it doesn't look like Mr. Davenport has thought of, or has knowledge of, and that is the issue of original signal identification.

Passive radar works off of existing / environmental EMF, BUT, the EMF signal that the passive system uses us one that is easily identified (by it's "fingerprint") this makes it possible to recognize the received signal as one that is actually a reflection, as opposed to some other signal source. Radar only works when we can properly identify the reflected signal.

The other idea, the data collection is also flawed. In that there isn't very much data that can be collected from a remote object via todays remote sensors.

Other issues I have are common to both, and that is the funding issue. Neither would require much by way of funding. The requirements are small, and easy to get around for a prototype. And, while both might require some degree of development, neither is complex enough for those requirements to be very large.

A final issue, again with both, is one of ubiquity. Both of these systems would require a vast amount of "sensing / receiving" stations, requiring that several hundred dollars of tech be place at each coordinate point.

The requirements could easily kill either project regardless of funding



posted on Jun, 10 2018 @ 08:23 AM
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Every 3657 years Nibiru passes Earth and causes Global Continental Displacement which by proxy causes Global Continental Displacement Waves to wipe all Continents clean of everything living...….we always have 3657 years to get our #e together and work as a unified group to get off this planet enmasse before the cataclysm hits us.....this is 3x the amount of time we actually require to go from caveman to space travel......so we get 2 mulligans and one real deal opportunities to survive as a species.


Whenever a cycle of humanity in this scenario leaves Earth they KNOW FULL WELL ABOUT this EXTREMELY REQUENT DEVESTATING EVENT NATURAL TO THIS PLANET....this is a tough neighborhood to come up out of IMHO......and they DO NOT PLAN TO RETURN.....however after many CYCLES like this multiple groups have survived and left Earth while many more have been wiped to caveman level and then NOT MADE IT OFF-PLANET IN TIME ENMASSE and those people during their cycle are what we burn in our cars and eat and use as petroleum products they along with all the animals and plant life from that cycles time period.


Eventually for various reasons running from the need of genetic material to curiosity to religious fervor to homesickness to many other reasons ...some of these cycles of Humanity RETURN TO THEIR HOME PLANET even though they know it is a ticking time bomb for those living on it....methinks many times they are simply curious to see if any humans have survived the Cycle they escaped from or the latest one...….

I don't think HUMANITY relies on Earth for its overall survival I believe Humanity exists on a UNIVERSAL LEVEL at this point in time....so IMHO no one is coming back here to save anyone....maybe some people will be saved....but the general feel I get is that we are testd via this cycle....if we cannot get out #e together in 3657 years then we TRULY do not earn a spot in the Greater Universe because we are not a suitable cycle for expansion....we are a crappy dangerous greedy cycle who have WILLINGLY ALLOWED TPTB TO SCREW US OVER AND LET US ALL DIE WHILE THEY TRY TO HIDE THEMSELVES TO SURVIVE.
Every time you see a nay-sayer on ATS for example whining about proof or trying to disenfranchise conversations about the truths we need to share we are seeing a HUMANITARIAN TERRORIST AT WORK....a criminal....and we WILLINGLY ALLOW THESE PEOPLE TO SHARE OUR CONVERSATIONS AND WORLD WITH US WHEN THEY CLEARLEY ARE DEVILS ADVOCATES WITH ONLY INTENTIONS OF SCREWING OTHERS UP.


We had thousands of years to sort our crap out....to find and disenfranchise and punish those who have conspired to ruin our cycle and our chance at maturity and freedom to expand within the Universe....we can NAME NAMES NOW because the end is near....tis a sad story IMHO....but we know who has screwed humanity....Rockefeller...Morgan....Rosthchild...we could go on and on and on because there are about 300 of these special monsters working together.....but we DO KNOW WHO THEY ARE and we know who their minions are and have been in the past......there is nowhere to hide now with the internet....but alas it is TO LATE TO GET US OFF-PLANET ENMASSE and BILLIONS will now die needlessly.


Imho life is UNIVERSAL and the TEMPLATE is ALWAYS THE SAME....the end result which is perfect is oftentimes different than others and we fail to aknowledge that this DOESNT MATTER....that we are ALL RELATED....we are ALL A PART OF A GREATER UNIVERSAL LIFE......no matter how different we look or act.
edit on 10-6-2018 by one4all because: (no reason given)



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