Welcome to the Trade Wars

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: DBCowboy

Again fair is a pretty vague concept here.

If it reduces the standard of living in the US is that still more fair?

Fair is not vague.


If we can bring back manufacturing, then I think that would outweigh any perceived negatives.


Why focus on service industry jobs when we have the opportunity to bring back jobs that paid 40, 60, 80 thousand a year?

And I am pointing out that tarrifs on raw materials will hurt not help manufacturing.

If that were the case, then the low tariffs we've assigned for the past 40 years should have helped us and yet, they haven't.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: DBCowboy

Is there any indication that we have a shortage of service workers? If we move everyone from engineering and manufacturing (replacing them with cheap foreign labour) where is the underserviced industry those workers move into? Mass shortages of hoteliers? Baristas? Waiters and waitresses?

Now let's double down and couple that with our push to open borders to flood the low end of the labour pool.

How does anyone think this represents a stronger economy in the long run than our closed economy of yesteryear?

Why are countries like China, Germany, France, etc all implementing out of proportion tariffs to protect their own domestic manufacturers or growers from our products? Didn't they get the memo that buying US goods, sending their currency abroad, and turning all their workers into baristas is the economic model for success?

Exactly.

If we start behaving like every other country and reciprocate with tariffs that match theirs, all of a sudden, the US is evil.


I'm having a hard time following that line of reasoning.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: DBCowboy

Is there any indication that we have a shortage of service workers? If we move everyone from engineering and manufacturing (replacing them with cheap foreign labour) where is the underserviced industry those workers move into? Mass shortages of hoteliers? Baristas? Waiters and waitresses?

Now let's double down and couple that with our push to open borders to flood the low end of the labour pool.

How does anyone think this represents a stronger economy in the long run than our closed economy of yesteryear?

Why are countries like China, Germany, France, etc all implementing out of proportion tariffs to protect their own domestic manufacturers or growers from our products? Didn't they get the memo that buying US goods, sending their currency abroad, and turning all their workers into baristas is the economic model for success?

You mean those socialist countries? China is communist. What are taxes like in general of those countries? What is it like to start a buainess?

What time periods did we ploy protectionism?

a reply to: DBCowboy

The national average salary for a Factory Worker is $27,310 in United States. Filter by location to see Factory Worker salaries in your area. Salary estimates are based on 1,782 salaries submitted anonymously to Glassdoor by Factory Worker employees.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: DBCowboy

Is there any indication that we have a shortage of service workers? If we move everyone from engineering and manufacturing (replacing them with cheap foreign labour) where is the underserviced industry those workers move into? Mass shortages of hoteliers? Baristas? Waiters and waitresses?

Now let's double down and couple that with our push to open borders to flood the low end of the labour pool.

How does anyone think this represents a stronger economy in the long run than our closed economy of yesteryear?

Why are countries like China, Germany, France, etc all implementing out of proportion tariffs to protect their own domestic manufacturers or growers from our products? Didn't they get the memo that buying US goods, sending their currency abroad, and turning all their workers into baristas is the economic model for success?

Exactly.

If we start behaving like every other country and reciprocate with tariffs that match theirs, all of a sudden, the US is evil.


I'm having a hard time following that line of reasoning.

Maybe we should raise taxes and have single payer Healthcare too?

a reply to: luthier

And that is because we have pissed away the manufacturing base and have become service oriented.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: luthier

And that is because we have pissed away the manufacturing base and have become service oriented.

How so? That makes no sense.. it's based on competition and pricing.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: DBCowboy

Is there any indication that we have a shortage of service workers? If we move everyone from engineering and manufacturing (replacing them with cheap foreign labour) where is the underserviced industry those workers move into? Mass shortages of hoteliers? Baristas? Waiters and waitresses?

Now let's double down and couple that with our push to open borders to flood the low end of the labour pool.

How does anyone think this represents a stronger economy in the long run than our closed economy of yesteryear?

Why are countries like China, Germany, France, etc all implementing out of proportion tariffs to protect their own domestic manufacturers or growers from our products? Didn't they get the memo that buying US goods, sending their currency abroad, and turning all their workers into baristas is the economic model for success?

Exactly.

If we start behaving like every other country and reciprocate with tariffs that match theirs, all of a sudden, the US is evil.


I'm having a hard time following that line of reasoning.

Maybe we should raise taxes and have single payer Healthcare too?

How can you sit there and cheer unfair trade practices?


It's almost as if you don't want the US to succeed.

*shrug*

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: DBCowboy

Is there any indication that we have a shortage of service workers? If we move everyone from engineering and manufacturing (replacing them with cheap foreign labour) where is the underserviced industry those workers move into? Mass shortages of hoteliers? Baristas? Waiters and waitresses?

Now let's double down and couple that with our push to open borders to flood the low end of the labour pool.

How does anyone think this represents a stronger economy in the long run than our closed economy of yesteryear?

Why are countries like China, Germany, France, etc all implementing out of proportion tariffs to protect their own domestic manufacturers or growers from our products? Didn't they get the memo that buying US goods, sending their currency abroad, and turning all their workers into baristas is the economic model for success?

Exactly.

If we start behaving like every other country and reciprocate with tariffs that match theirs, all of a sudden, the US is evil.


I'm having a hard time following that line of reasoning.

Maybe we should raise taxes and have single payer Healthcare too?

How can you sit there and cheer unfair trade practices?


It's almost as if you don't want the US to succeed.

*shrug*

Because I don't misunderstand what they mean.

I am for freedom of choice. I am for as free a market as possible.

The US has an average salary twice that of a factory worker.

It appears you have a moral idiological argument that isn't based on today's reality.

a reply to: luthier

I'm against unfair trade policies.

I'm for having more US jobs, more US benefits.

I am nationalistic.

I would prefer that the US did better than anyone else because I live here and I want all the best things here.


Pretty simple to me. But I'm a simple guy.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: luthier

I'm against unfair trade policies.

I'm for having more US jobs, more US benefits.

I am nationalistic.

I would prefer that the US did better than anyone else because I live here and I want all the best things here.


Pretty simple to me. But I'm a simple guy.

Isn't it better when you can afford goods?

What you are talking about is the exact problem of raising min wage.

Why is lowering your wage better?

Why is less freedom better?

The us is doing better than anyone else.

Do.you know why China is gaining on us?

They are not free. They have limited freedom. They are completely controlled by a man who just gave himself lifetime power.

That is what you want?

a reply to: DBCowboy

It's a race to the bottom (and the top). Destroy high wages by flooding the labour market with cheap labour and outsourcing jobs in other sectors, supply endless credit to consumers, and claim economic victory because the prices for whatsits and widgits are cheaper.

Guess where the money is all going.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: DBCowboy

It's a race to the bottom (and the top). Destroy high wages by flooding the labour market with cheap labour and outsourcing jobs in other sectors, supply endless credit to consumers, and claim economic victory because the prices for whatsits and widgits are cheaper.

Guess where the money is all going.

Can you prove any of that? Outsourcing what? Pressing a button on a machine and pulling out a part?

The labor market changes. The intervention of that by government is force.

Free trade makes the economy better. Can we make changes we sure can...

Should they be throwing a wrench in the gears. Nope. It never works.

I understand this is a negotiation and cultural tactic. It's just pointless and dangerous. Well kot pointless it gets people rallied who don't understand business and pricing.

a reply to: luthier

I have several high tech companies with manufacturing plants in my area. The jobs pay well and employ thousands of workers here. It is highly automated, and we still have thousands of workers who run, watchover, fix, etc the fab. They also employ some service workers and janitors to keep you happy, though those are also seemingly well paid.

Most smaller companies cannot afford the outlay for automation. So fabrication, machining, and assembly is still manual in many companies. I worked at a SBIR-sized company with multimillion dollar contracts and all our fabrication was by hand. It still is.

Edit: and prove what? That companies and useful idiots continue to lobby for open borders and cheap labour? Watch the news. That the same MNC's are outsourcing by design? You've just belaboured the point repeatedly. That credit is being supplied ridiculously easy and cheaply the last twenty years compared to earlier historical periods? Have you been awake?

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

I have several high tech companies with manufacturing plants in my area. The jobs pay well and employ thousands of workers here. It is highly automated, and we still have thousands of workers who run, watchover, fix, etc the fab. They also employ some service workers and janitors to keep you happy, though those are also seemingly well paid.

Most smaller companies cannot afford the outlay for automation. So fabrication, machining, and assembly is still manual in many companies. I worked at a SBIR-sized company with multimillion dollar contracts and all our fabrication was by hand. It still is.

Cool how many of the jobs can there be if the national average is 27k?

Do you assume we will have a nation of manufacturing our daily goods and still have low prices?

You are referring to a niche market.

Which is awesome. America is going to need tobe innovative and entrapenurial to continue forward. In a VARIED economy.

I am not saying we need to roll over and take it in the ### I am saying this isn't the way to do it. It's something that needs to happen over time and in a more natural way. The danger of taroffs are retaliation. We are not in a position to produce out everyday needs and refine the material. That really shouldn't even be the goal.

I understand we have a trade imbalance and it can't continue forever. That also doesn't mean I have to support this solution.

a reply to: luthier

The goal shouldn't be a completely closed economy. I'm fine with China undercutting the market price and dealing with the environmental impact of rare earth mining and maintaining our reserves. Plenty of other countries would mine it if China stops selling or subsidizing it.

Perhaps because of my experience in the defense industry, and experience with subs and primes, I see steel and aluminum manufacturing as essential industries regardless of China's effort to flood the market with steel of questionable quality. Ever try to make something of quality with steel that is supposed to be one thing and is really another? Ever try to machine something to a spec with steel littered with inclusions?

China tried to get around tariffs on their depressed steel by shuffling it through third parties in Korea and Brazil. Guess what this administration was about to stop with threats of tariffs to both of those countries. They got quotas dropping the quantity of imported steel from those countries. There is no incentive for Korean steel firms to continue to be a third party supplier at the cost of their own product, for example.

We've spent decades begging countries to reduce their tariffs on US products. It's largely been a failure. This administration just decided to play the same game. Instead of begging, this administration chose to level the playing field for american manufacturing another way. We'll raise our own and let other people feel the squeeze for a bit. Trade wars are won by whoever is willing to take the short term pain for long term gain. No country is better positioned for this than the US. They just have to be willing. And we look to have someone willing.

When China planned on placing higher tariffs on US ag in retaliation, the US indicated it was willing to subsidize those affected. And that threat then dissipated. The goal here shouldn't be high tariffs. It should be fair access to other markets (and a slew of other issues with China). The tariffs are just the tool to get access. China can never win a trade war if we're willing to bute the bullet. They know it. We know it. We've just never been willing to do it. They only respect strength. Otherwise you get a repeat of the past 30 years of policy. "Thanks for the cash and tech. Come again soon. We'll look into that other stuff".

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: DBCowboy

Again fair is a pretty vague concept here.

If it reduces the standard of living in the US is that still more fair?

Fair is not vague.


If we can bring back manufacturing, then I think that would outweigh any perceived negatives.


Why focus on service industry jobs when we have the opportunity to bring back jobs that paid 40, 60, 80 thousand a year?

And I am pointing out that tarrifs on raw materials will hurt not help manufacturing.

If that were the case, then the low tariffs we've assigned for the past 40 years should have helped us and yet, they haven't.

As already stated, the decline in US manufacturing can't be linked to low tarrifs on raw materials.

Increasing those tarrifs will however certainly make manufacturing less competitive.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: DBCowboy

Again fair is a pretty vague concept here.

If it reduces the standard of living in the US is that still more fair?

Fair is not vague.


If we can bring back manufacturing, then I think that would outweigh any perceived negatives.


Why focus on service industry jobs when we have the opportunity to bring back jobs that paid 40, 60, 80 thousand a year?

And I am pointing out that tarrifs on raw materials will hurt not help manufacturing.

If that were the case, then the low tariffs we've assigned for the past 40 years should have helped us and yet, they haven't.

As already stated, the decline in US manufacturing can't be linked to low tarrifs on raw materials.

Increasing those tarrifs will however certainly make manufacturing less competitive.

You and others keep treating the tariffs as though they are happening in a vacuum instead of acknowledging the bigger picture. The tariffs are not and never have been an end goal. The end goal is better trade agreements with better access to foreign markets in the case of our allies, and a host of other issues with China. The tariffs bring pain and urgency to the table when everyone else has slow-walked efforts to address those issues because the US never has teeth and bends to the will of the multitude of MNC's who want lower wages, lower supply costs, and higher margins that our current policies enable.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: links234

Imagine if the US got a better deal as a result.

But of course it's Trump, so the obligatory, "Ahhhh! We all gonna die! Ahhhhh!"

Imagine if Trump ruins a good economy Obama left him just as Bush ruined the good economy Clinton left him

If you're going to imagine, that goes both ways

What happens when the very industry you are trying to protect doesn't want the tariffs, for example aluminium.



The American market can't meet it's own demand because it is rising so fast, this drives the cost up for everybody for no reason.
So Trump is not too smart on this one. He is actually causing artificial inflation, unless this was his way of raising taxes in very sneaky way.
Those with critical thinking skills see right through this gambit that he portrays as protection to the American economy, because it actually isn't.